leaning the hands forward?

[CuppedTin]

I think people are losing sight of what this shot is intended for when the hands are pushed that far forward. I would only use this shot in high winds, to run under low tree's, etc... Being brand new to this I think I can tell where golfers get stuck, I noticed a few times if I got in a hurry I would push the handle forward, but I would also push it out causing a slight bow in my leading wrist... Now, when I pushed the handle forward and kept it on the same line then I noticed a slight cup in my leading wrist and the shots were low, boring, slight draw, and ran...

This was just my observation...

In Short, don't confuse pressing the hands/handle forward with forward and away from your body. The hands/handle must remain on the original line/plane/position and pressed forward from there. Any easy check point for me is this: Pressed to my front leg or past front leg then I need to notice a slight cup in my leading wrist. If pressed to my front leg or past and I notice my wrist is bowed then I'm in trouble.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

Quote: Iacas

I was pushing bunkerputt to give reasons why "not" to do something that can, on occasion for some golfers or in certain situations, work quite well.

I'm talking about a stock shot here where you want repeatable simplicity, so disregarding changes to influence the movement of the ball. I certainly agree that hands forward and high can tend to promote a draw as long as the ball is in a position on the ground to be struck late and from the inside, i.e. not too close and too far back.

And in most players, we would definitely not want to see their "stock" setup with their handle that far forward. Some people, however, will literally play golf with their handle well forward because it helps them to play better golf until they can work on that piece more dynamically.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

I also think that it's a bit of a stretch to say something like "putting the hands forward at address gives the player a better chance of getting them forward at impact". I've yet to see one person with an extreme forward press that doesn't cast the club to some degree.

My objection to that is that if I can take a guy who has -8 degrees of shaft lean at impact (i.e. handle behind the ball) and get him to even 1 degree of forward shaft lean at impact (or zero, or -2) simply by pushing the handle forward at setup, I'll do it if he's working on something else more important.

And we will see players who are able to get the handle farther forward simply by setting up that way. It's not ideal, and frankly, it's really rare that something else would take priority over having even a little bit of shaft lean (it goes to commonality #1: great players hit the ball solidly and take a divot after the ball, while poorer players do not), but it happens.

Particularly, say, with the driver. One guy stands out in my mind - we had to give him every "draw" piece in the book to get him to comfortably start hitting draws and not BIG slices with his driver. So it's rare that we'll use it for a stock shot setup, but it happens. Do these people still cast or flip? Yes. But less so than before, typically.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

IMO there should be some cupping of the lead wrist at the top of the backswing.  That has been argued in other threads, so deferring that question for now and assuming it's desired, with the hands pressed forward and a neutral grip, in order to get to a proper P4, the following has to be done, not necessarily in this order:

You're overthinking it. First, Graeme McDowell and Dustin Johnson don't really agree with your first sentence. Maybe in your swing you want some slight dorsiflexion of the left wrist, but it's not necessary or anything. It's simply a component, and if paired with other components, you can play good golf from any set of wrist conditions.

Your list is great and all, but the problem with it is that you seem to be assuming that pushing the handle forward two or three inches is going to throw things off when, in reality, the guy swinging the club probably isn't doing those four bullet points or whatever you had very well to begin with, so who's to say it won't improve the timing of the things? Who's to say it won't "sync" them rather than move them "out of sync"?

Also, I don't know what you mean by "club orientation brought with hands from shut position to square"? Hands being forward doesn't guarantee a "shut" position. Most people will actually let the club rotate open a little as they push the handle forward.

That's to say nothing of the fact that virtually every full golf swing uses the third accumulator, which rotates the clubface relative to the plane. The clubface is actually quite wide open to the plane at the top of the backswing. The left arm rotates. If it didn't the club would be hanging out over our heads rather than pointing towards the target at the top of the backswing.

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

I've swung both ways in my life, first with an extreme forward press, second with a tucked left arm and cupped wrist, hands pulled back. With the forward press, I found that more than not, I struggled with a club plane too flat, approach too far from the inside, and flip and a block release to prevent the shut club face from pull-hooking. I always fought a two-way miss.

Right... so take this the right way... that's you. Please be careful in saying "don't do that" to others when they may have different components than you. You probably pushed the handle forward and rolled #3 aggressively and sucked the clubhead well under/inside the plane, from which point your plane was too flat without any hand ascent, and you'd return similarly with the club well inside/under and have to hope to God your timing let you push the ball primarily.

But pushing the hands forward at setup doesn't dictate that the clubface be "shut" at the top of the backswing. It likely was for you, but I guarantee I can make a swing - and there are those out there who can do it too - who will dorsiflex their left wrist even more when their left wrist is made flatter or even slightly bowed at setup, just as there are some who will instinctively "bow" the left wrist at the top when it's set in a more cupped position at setup.

Just please beware the catch-alls. What you experienced may not apply to everyone. It's a pitfall even the best instructors have to avoid.

For example, a strong grip. Put most people in a strong grip and they'll start the ball farther left. Put some people in a stronger grip and they'll sense it and fight or hold the clubface off, and will actually start the ball more to the right.

[bunkerputt]

You're points are well taken Erik, particularly the confusion "Also, I don't know what you mean by "club orientation brought with hands from shut position to square"?"  I'm assuming a lot here that might not necessarily be true.  I'm thinking of a situation where an extreme forward press opens or closes the clubface inadvertently and a compensation isn't made to bring it back to square at the top.  Certainly it's possible to have the hands forward and the clubface square at address, otherwise it wouldn't really be possible at impact either.  Attributing clubface manipulation to a forward press is probably unfair.

[bunkerputt]

By the way, thanks for the time you put into your post.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

You're points are well taken Erik, particularly the confusion "Also, I don't know what you mean by "club orientation brought with hands from shut position to square"?"  I'm assuming a lot here that might not necessarily be true.  I'm thinking of a situation where an extreme forward press opens or closes the clubface inadvertently and a compensation isn't made to bring it back to square at the top.  Certainly it's possible to have the hands forward and the clubface square at address, otherwise it wouldn't really be possible at impact either.  Attributing clubface manipulation to a forward press is probably unfair.

Yes, i would call that a separate issue, as you can manipulate the clubface with the handle back, forward, or perfectly neutral.

It would be more common to get mis-aligned with an extreme handle position, though, so it's not entirely out of consideration.

[mgolfer167]

A slight amount of press is all right, maybe an inch or two. Basically, if your hands are two far behind the ball at adress, you're going to hit lower, thinner shots, whereas if your hands are too far in front of the ball, you will hit shots that are higher than normal with lots of spin. These shots, however, will generally shoot to the right of your target. The best possible advice that I can give is to have your swing taped digitally, and to make sure your hands are basically centered over the ball. Video lessons are great for this sort of thing...

[glock35ipsc]

Originally Posted by ks8829

By having a forward press you ensure that the bottom of the arc of your swing is just before the ball, thus you make solid contact.

Before the ball, or after?  Wouldn't the bottom of the swing arc occurring before ball contact be hitting fat?  I was under the impression that the bottom of the swing arc for a RH golfer was just about under the left arm pit.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by glock35ipsc

Before the ball, or after?  Wouldn't the bottom of the swing arc occurring before ball contact be hitting fat?  I was under the impression that the bottom of the swing arc for a RH golfer was just about under the left arm pit.

Not sure about the left armpit (i.e. who cares) but ks8829 says a lot of things the wrong way around. I've always assumed it was either a language issue.

[glock35ipsc]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Not sure about the left armpit (i.e. who cares) but ks8829 says a lot of things the wrong way around. I've always assumed it was either a language issue.

Lol, gotcha!

[jaredshows1]

When I purposely try to hit the ball with forward shaft lean I always hit a push fade. What's the deal?

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by jaredshows1

When I purposely try to hit the ball with forward shaft lean I always hit a push fade. What's the deal?

According to the Ball Flight Laws, a push-fade is when you have an in to out swing where the clubface is slightly open to the swing path.  So, in your efforts to have forward shaft lean, you've somehow managed to have an open clubface at impact.

[golfballs01]

There's a good reason that the grip needs to be forward of the ball when hitting the irons. First of all, the factory loft of the club is determined with the club leaning forward. That's why they're displayed on the shelf in that position. The irons are designed to hit the ball in a (DOWNWARD) motion. This is referred to as Trapping, Pinching, or Squeezing the ball. Notice also that the divot is (ALWAYS) in front of the ball after it is hit. Look at the address positions of the touring pros and notice how their hands are forward. Address is simply establishing an impact position. Also keep in mind that the forward hand - arm is the one applying the swing so the club would actually be an extension of that arm. With that, the club head would reach it's lowest point in the swing beyond the ball, thus striking it in a downward portion of the swing. This will also apply the spin necessary to control the flight of the ball. It also does whats known as de-lofting the club face. One additional + is that if you hold the club face up in front of your face, move it in a striking motion, and then look at the height of the club head, you'll notice how much taller the face becomes when the club is leaning towards the target. That creates more margin for error. Last but not least, the ball will fly more out towards the target instead of up in the air. Because of all of these factors, a sand wedge can easily be hit 150 yards, a 5 iron over 200, etc. Try to concentrate on a fixed position about one inch in front of the ball, think of entering the ground at that point with the ball getting in the way. You'll be surprised at how far you will be able to hit the ball. Go ahead, take a chunk of earth out in front of the ball. Why not, the Touring Pros do.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Tomboys

According to the Ball Flight Laws, a push-fade is when you have an in to out swing where the clubface is slightly open to the swing path.  So, in your efforts to have forward shaft lean, you've somehow managed to have an open clubface at impact.

Well, the clubface points right of the body alignment and the path is simply somewhat left of that. So a path that's 0 (parallel to the body's alignment) with a face that's +3 (to the right) would be a push-fade too. So would the same clubface with a path that's -3 (to the left).

"Push" just tells us the face is right enough of the body alignment to start the ball right and "fade" just tells us the path is left of that face somewhere.

Originally Posted by golfballs01

First of all, the factory loft of the club is determined with the club leaning forward.

That's not true. Loft is measured with the shaft vertical.

Originally Posted by golfballs01

This is referred to as Trapping, Pinching, or Squeezing the ball.

Please be careful: the ball is not actually "trapped" or "pinched" or "squeezed" against the ground at all on a properly struck iron shot.

Originally Posted by golfballs01

Address is simply establishing an impact position.

I disagree. Address is not impact. The club isn't often even returned to the same position, and the body definitely isn't.

[Danattherock]

A representative image to show the difference in address and impact....

[Danattherock]

Originally Posted by jaredshows1

When I purposely try to hit the ball with forward shaft lean I always hit a push fade. What's the deal?

Could be the same reason I recently hit a block, push, or shank. I was trying to have so much forward shaft lean (in my mind to prevent a hook) I was dragging the club head through impact at times. I have a very inside to out path. In a recent lesson, I learned how to avoid hooking and it had nothing to do with forward shaft lean. I backed off the shaft lean and let it happen dynamically as it should. Over cooking the forward shaft lean was a big set back to me.

At this point, I feel forward shaft lean can not be forced, it must be a natural byproduct of a fundamentally solid swing. Point being, the things we do in a golf swing prior to impact set up the proper impact condition. Too many images from golf books and magazines tainted my mind. While a forward leaning shaft is important, creating it in the wrong way is damaging from what I have seen. Not to say it is not essential, just suggesting that how you get there is more important than I first thought.

-Dan

[golfballs01]

At a full swing, the demonstration shown above at (impact) is exaggerated and not the same. The exception to this is a knockdown shot. The club actually does return back very closely to the address position as long as the address is of course correct. The club is in the correct position at address in the picture. That I do agree with. The difference in address and impact though is the hips rotated forward, the right knee being forward and the shoulder position. The lean of the club though is more upright than shown in the picture. I have a library of swings from tour players and they are all consistent in what I'm sharing. The club traveling in a descending blow does actually trap the ball, then the ball rolls up the club face as the club continues downward through the impact zone. Get out your high speed camera, look at the head on shot and see what happens. I use a 1000 fps HD camera and can validate what I am saying. Some people are uncomfortable using certain terms where others use it quite comfortably. I'm not trying to step on toes or have a war on words, I'm only repeating what I have heard for years by others in the industry and the touring pros themselves. You will find these terms used by many teachers and pros. Homer Kelly, Bobby Clampet, Earnie Ells, Mike Breed and quite a few others refer to it as such. The exception in this is a clean picked ball which I'm sure that you know is typically a sign of scooping. This isn't to say that is always the case.

As far as the loft of the clubs, I have always been told by club fitters as well as pros that the club is slightly forward of vertical when determining the loft of the club. Edwin Watts, Golf Galaxy, and Sports Authority have confirmed this belief.

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by iacas

Well, the clubface points right of the body alignment and the path is simply somewhat left of that. So a path that's 0 (parallel to the body's alignment) with a face that's +3 (to the right) would be a push-fade too. So would the same clubface with a path that's -3 (to the left).

"Push" just tells us the face is right enough of the body alignment to start the ball right and "fade" just tells us the path is left of that face somewhere.

Thanks for the correction.  Now, just so I don't go around doling out the wrong advice to my buds, when you say a push fade can occur with a path that's -3, you're talking about the path relative to the target line and not the body's alignment, correct?

[Tomboys]

Originally Posted by Tomboys

Thanks for the correction.  Now, just so I don't go around doling out the wrong advice to my buds, when you say a push fade can occur with a path that's -3, you're talking about the path relative to the target line and not the body's alignment, correct?

Oops.  Nevermind, I figured it out.