Strange way to escape bunker

[gilagolf]

I recently played with a guy who in one bunker used the back of his blade putter (the cavity recess where you usually use to scoop up your ball from the green by flipping it up) to scoop his ball out of the bunker and onto the green. I am almost 100% certain that is against the rule of golf, but not sure which part of it states it.

Does anyone know?

[Ignorant]

You're just jealous ;-)

As long as he actually makes a stroke at the ball as described in Rule 14-1 it is completely ok. A ball must be struck with the head of the club but nowhere is it stated which side of the head.

Then again, if he scrapes the ball out of the bunker then he is violating R14-1.

[deasy55]

You can't scoop. A scoop isn't a stroke

[zeg]

"Fairly struck" is the key here. If he's making a continuous stroke using that property of the club, I'd wager he's ok---after all, a standard sand blast shot could be described as scooping a bunch of sand out. If he's using it like a shovel, or otherwise not making a fluid stroke through the ball, then he's pushing or scraping or somesuch.

[ghalfaire]

I didn't find a definition of pushed, scraped or spooned in my rule book.  But that aside I agree if he made a "swing" at it and hit it with the head of the club I would think it was a fairly struck ball and I admire the fellow's imagination.  I might try this on the practice range and see how it works.

After a little thought I see with my putter I would likely have to make the shot left handed (I can do that as I am mostly left handed).  So this would be a difficult shot for a right handed golfer to pull off unless the putter was center shafted.  Since center shafted clubs are not legal except for the putter I wonder now about the legality of that shot if you have a center shafted putter.  Interesting situation for sure.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

I didn't find a definition of pushed, scraped or spooned in my rule book.  But that aside I agree if he made a "swing" at it and hit it with the head of the club I would think it was a fairly struck ball and I admire the fellow's imagination.  I might try this on the practice range and see how it works.

After a little thought I see with my putter I would likely have to make the shot left handed (I can do that as I am mostly left handed).  So this would be a difficult shot for a right handed golfer to pull off unless the putter was center shafted.  Since center shafted clubs are not legal except for the putter I wonder now about the legality of that shot if you have a center shafted putter.  Interesting situation for sure.

Nothing wrong with making such a shot with a center shafted putter, simply because it's still a putter.  If it's a conforming putter, it doesn't make any difference what shot you use it for as long as the the other requirements for making a stroke and fairly striking the ball are met.

If he did strike the ball and not scoop it, then I think he just got lucky.  I've made such attempts before with a putter and the results are usually pretty inconsistent.  You have 2 edges hitting the ball, and unless both strike the ball together, you technically have a double hit, which is a one stroke penalty.  And the flight of the ball would be very different if you hit the top edge (top of the face) than it would if you hit with the bottom edge (back of the sole).  It just seems like a low percentage shot unless he did scoop it, in which case it wasn't a proper shot.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

I didn't find a definition of pushed, scraped or spooned in my rule book.

Take a closer look, it is right here:

14-1. Ball to be Fairly Struck At
The ball must be fairly struck at with the head of the club and must not be pushed, scraped or spooned.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If he did strike the ball and not scoop it, then I think he just got lucky.  I've made such attempts before with a putter and the results are usually pretty inconsistent.  You have 2 edges hitting the ball, and unless both strike the ball together, you technically have a double hit, which is a one stroke penalty.

That is funny, I always thought one is hitting the sand, not the ball....

[deasy55]

Which the person in question doesn't appear to be doing since he is apparently scooping it out......hence the thread

Originally Posted by Ignorant

That is funny, I always thought one is hitting the sand, not the ball....

[gilagolf]

After some thought, I am quite convinced that he scooped the ball out. I didn't see it as the bunker was quite deep, but there is no way in heck he could have used the back of the putter with a proper swing. So I think he would just have used it the same way as we would when we scoop the ball up from the green after we've finished putting. Except he did it to get out of the bunker.

He told me as much when I asked him how he got the ball out, and he said, "Putter". I didn't pursue it then, but it kinda stuck after the round.

It might be a small issue, but I'm thinking over this because I lost a wager! Haha, so I am obviously annoyed, and I don't like losing :)

[CBO]

Originally Posted by gilagolf

After some thought, I am quite convinced that he scooped the ball out. I didn't see it as the bunker was quite deep, but there is no way in heck he could have used the back of the putter with a proper swing. So I think he would just have used it the same way as we would when we scoop the ball up from the green after we've finished putting. Except he did it to get out of the bunker.

He told me as much when I asked him how he got the ball out, and he said, "Putter". I didn't pursue it then, but it kinda stuck after the round.

It might be a small issue, but I'm thinking over this because I lost a wager! Haha, so I am obviously annoyed, and I don't like losing :)

I think I've seen Jack Nicklaus do this. The 'trick' is you place a putter with an open back side in front of the ball, then scoop it to the outside (away from the hole) and around, and release the ball when the putter head is above your head. Would be an easy way to get out of a deep bunker, but definitely not allowed

[FLOG4]

So he's in a deep bunker....You don't see him hit it.....You ask and he says putter....Why is it you assume he hit it opposite handed with the back end?  If the face is smooth and there is no lip overlap.....He could have hit it like a normal putt....The texas wedge can work from many non flat bunkers that don't have a lip.

[Kieran123]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Nothing wrong with making such a shot with a center shafted putter, simply because it's still a putter.  If it's a conforming putter, it doesn't make any difference what shot you use it for as long as the the other requirements for making a stroke and fairly striking the ball are met.

If he did strike the ball and not scoop it, then I think he just got lucky.  I've made such attempts before with a putter and the results are usually pretty inconsistent.  You have 2 edges hitting the ball, and unless both strike the ball together, you technically have a double hit, which is a one stroke penalty.  And the flight of the ball would be very different if you hit the top edge (top of the face) than it would if you hit with the bottom edge (back of the sole).  It just seems like a low percentage shot unless he did scoop it, in which case it wasn't a proper shot.

This. Although it would be hard to tell even in slow motion replay  most of the time this type of shot would be a double hit.

[gilagolf]

@flog4: Probably didn't clarify, he did say he used the back of the putter, and the launch angle that he came out of the bunker, no way he texas wedged it.

On that subject, Texas wedge is really popular here on some courses, where there's no lip on the bunker, you are correct. I once had a birdie that way!

[clubchamp]

Unless he hit the lip and it popped up onto the green there is no way he hit a legit shot in the way you've described. I'm not even sure you could hit a fairly struck shot with the back side of the putter it would almost have to be scooped. Assuming he is a righty the only way he would have a chance of hitting this shot is from a lefty stance which further would lead me to believe he just stuck the putter behind it and flicked it out.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by clubchamp

Unless he hit the lip and it popped up onto the green there is no way he hit a legit shot in the way you've described. I'm not even sure you could hit a fairly struck shot with the back side of the putter it would almost have to be scooped. Assuming he is a righty the only way he would have a chance of hitting this shot is from a lefty stance which further would lead me to believe he just stuck the putter behind it and flicked it out.

I assume you have tried that shot several times and failed as you are so convinced it cannot be done?

[John H Tidyman]

I'd be interested in a ruling re the double hit because all club faces have only one surface. In this case, it might have been two. But the club was legal. Hmmm. Not to be picky, but this is a semi-interesting situation.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by John H Tidyman

I'd be interested in a ruling re the double hit because all club faces have only one surface. In this case, it might have been two. But the club was legal. Hmmm. Not to be picky, but this is a semi-interesting situation.

The back faces of many putters have multiple surfaces and complex geometries.  Many irons also have complex shapes on the back, mine have a lip at the bottom edge, then a gap inside the perimeter weighting, and a rim around the edge of it.  It'd be essentially impossible to use the back of any of these clubs to fairly strike a ball except maybe on the putting green where you could "blade" it with some edge.