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Posted

Nice discussion on driver angle of attack. It seems to be that the majority of pros hit down on a driver as well as irons:

http://www.hititlonger.com/images/uploads/blog/PGATourTrackmanAverages.jpg

http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter6.pdf (page 5)

The question is whether they do so because they always have done and just haven't changed or whether there's logic behind it, e.g. more accuracy?

  • Upvote 1

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Posted


Originally Posted by poser

Hitting up on the driver goes farther and has been proven many times.  Think this is why they are changing that.



What backs up this statement other than you just saying it? I'd be willing to bet that I couldn't hit it any further...


Posted


Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Nice discussion on driver angle of attack. It seems to be that the majority of pros hit down on a driver as well as irons:

http://www.hititlonger.com/images/uploads/blog/PGATourTrackmanAverages.jpg

http://www.trackman.dk/download/newsletter/newsletter6.pdf (page 5)

The question is whether they do so because they always have done and just haven't changed or whether there's logic behind it, e.g. more accuracy?

Great Post with great data to back it up...

I will never be convinced that having a negative AOA on irons and a positive AOA on Driver will ever be a good idea for my swing. I like the KISS approach.


Posted


Originally Posted by CuppedTin

What backs up this statement other than you just saying it? I'd be willing to bet that I couldn't hit it any further...

Here is just one source.

http://www.golf.com/golf/gallery/article/0,28242,1697381-14,00.html

It has been shown many times with trackman.  Then again if it makes you feel better that I just make up things on the fly then I once threw a football over a mountain too and its on google look it up.

Driver: Titleist 915 D3
3 wood: 15 Callaway X Hot pro
Hybrids:  18 Callaway X Hot Pro
Irons: 4-GW Callaway Apex
project x 6.0
Wedges: 54 , 58 Callaway
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Ball: Callaway Chrome

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Posted

The more you swing up at the ball, the more you shift the baseline left and hence more likely to fade the ball. A negative angle of attack makes it easier to hit a push draw. Guys like Bubba hit it so long because not only does he swing it hard, but he hits a ridiculous amount up at the ball lowering his spin greatly.

Driver: Taylormade R11 set to 8*
3 Wood: R9 15* Motore Stiff
Hybrid: 19° 909 H Voodoo
Irons: 4-PW AP2 Project X 5.5
52*, 60* Vokey SM Chrome

Putter: Odyssey XG #7

Ball: Titleist Pro V1x


Posted


Originally Posted by michaeljames92

The more you swing up at the ball, the more you shift the baseline left and hence more likely to fade the ball. A negative angle of attack makes it easier to hit a push draw. Guys like Bubba hit it so long because not only does he swing it hard, but he hits a ridiculous amount up at the ball lowering his spin greatly.



I thought Bubba had a negative AOA? I was under the assumption that hitting up created a higher spin rate. But then again I have been wrong plenty of times before.


Posted


Originally Posted by poser

For some reason my reply isn't showing up in this thread but, here is just one source that hitting up on driver goes longer.

http://www.golf.com/golf/gallery/article/0,28242,1697381-14,00.html



Thanks Poser, good read.


Posted

Lowers the spin loft I believe.

Driver: Taylormade R11 set to 8*
3 Wood: R9 15* Motore Stiff
Hybrid: 19° 909 H Voodoo
Irons: 4-PW AP2 Project X 5.5
52*, 60* Vokey SM Chrome

Putter: Odyssey XG #7

Ball: Titleist Pro V1x


  • Administrator
Posted

Originally Posted by poser

Hitting up on the driver goes farther and has been proven many times.  Think this is why they are changing that.


To be clear, "they" aren't changing it if by "they" you mean Mike and Andy. They still primarily teach on the PGA Tour and they still primarily prefer to see a push draw with the driver. Easier to control.

If by "they" you mean Dave and I at Golf Evolution, then yes, for some students - even "most" students - we're teaching a positive angle of attack and a slight fade or simply closing your stance enough if you want to play a draw.

Hitting up gains distance (generally speaking) but sacrifices some control (generally speaking). The wedge is coming out, rate of closure is a bit higher...

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

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Posted


Originally Posted by iacas

To be clear, "they" aren't changing it if by "they" you mean Mike and Andy. They still primarily teach on the PGA Tour and they still primarily prefer to see a push draw with the driver. Easier to control.

If by "they" you mean Dave and I at Golf Evolution, then yes, for some students - even "most" students - we're teaching a positive angle of attack and a slight fade or simply closing your stance enough if you want to play a draw.

Hitting up gains distance (generally speaking) but sacrifices some control (generally speaking). The wedge is coming out, rate of closure is a bit higher...


Thanks for clearing this up Erik, I think I'll stick to the more control and less distance approach with the negative AOA.


Posted

I actually find a cut shot for me is more controllable witht he driver but, ever other club including 3 wood I hit a push draw.

Driver: Titleist 915 D3
3 wood: 15 Callaway X Hot pro
Hybrids:  18 Callaway X Hot Pro
Irons: 4-GW Callaway Apex
project x 6.0
Wedges: 54 , 58 Callaway
Putter: 2 ball
Ball: Callaway Chrome

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Posted

As long as the new DVD has nothing to do with Medicus than I am happy to hear they are doing another one. If it is connected to Medicus "NO THANK YOU". I still get calls and spam from the Medicus marketing pricks. Staying away from Medicus should also help them get out the message the way they want rather than the overhyped marketing that was done before. I think Mike and Andy are great teachers so anything they do is informative.

As for hitting up on the driver, well probably not for this thread but if your swing speed is averaging 112mph (average tour pro speed) then hitting -2 with the driver is a good tradeoff of accuracy for distance. Now if your like me at around 98mph well then I need the distance. I went from -4 to +1 and picked up 25-30 yards. I am a little less accurate but hitting 9 iron from the rough is better than 6 iron from the fairway.

Michael

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Posted


Originally Posted by CuppedTin

Thanks for clearing this up Erik, I think I'll stick to the more control and less distance approach with the negative AOA.



If you hit it plenty far, then that's a good idea. While I was doing my driver fitting, I messed around trying to hit more up on the ball and it was a disaster! For one, it was extremely difficult to change the AoA more than a degree and two, making solid contact become almost impossible rendering the exercise completely useless.

"Success is going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." – Winston Churchill


Posted


Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

If you hit it plenty far, then that's a good idea. While I was doing my driver fitting, I messed around trying to hit more up on the ball and it was a disaster! For one, it was extremely difficult to change the AoA more than a degree and two, making solid contact become almost impossible rendering the exercise completely useless.



I'm not a ReMax Long Drive champion, but my comfortable swing speed is around 118-120... I guess we are all different, but I just like the idea of hitting down. It seems to suit me and my game very well. And I also do not play the push-draw, I'm guessing my ball flight may be considered a pull-fade for a left handed golfer, I don't dare take my hands inside on the back swing because I just do not prefer that ball flight. I wish I could find Erik's ball flight diagram.


Posted

Heres a good chart that shows difference between hitting up vs hitting down. TrackMan optimal Driver Numbers.png

  • Upvote 2

Posted
Is it true that Stack and Tilt will be changing their position on weight being forward from 80% to 60/40?

Posted

Hey Erik, assuming you get +5 AOA is it still expected that there is forward shaft lean at impact? If you can hit up on the ball and somehow hold on to the lag/forward shaft lean would that help maintain the control?

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  • Administrator
Posted

Originally Posted by CuppedTin

Is it true that Stack and Tilt will be changing their position on weight being forward from 80% to 60/40?


It's not 80% until well in the downswing, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.


Originally Posted by The Gill

Hey Erik, assuming you get +5 AOA is it still expected that there is forward shaft lean at impact? If you can hit up on the ball and somehow hold on to the lag/forward shaft lean would that help maintain the control?


You can have a forward leaning shaft, yep. I don't have a bunch of pictures but the Rory one is pretty good. Grant is hitting the ball at low point. If the ball were slightly forward it'd be ascending but with a shaft leaning still a little forward.

grant_rory.jpg

Erik J. Barzeski —  I knock a ball. It goes in a gopher hole. 🏌🏼‍♂️
Director of Instruction Golf Evolution • Owner, The Sand Trap .com • AuthorLowest Score Wins
Golf Digest "Best Young Teachers in America" 2016-17 & "Best in State" 2017-20 • WNY Section PGA Teacher of the Year 2019 :edel: :true_linkswear:

Check Out: New Topics | TST Blog | Golf Terms | Instructional Content | Analyzr | LSW | Instructional Droplets

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    • When you've been teaching golf as long as I have, you're going to find that you can teach some things better than you previously had, and you're probably going to find some things that you taught incorrectly. I don't see that as a bad thing — what would be worse is refusing to adapt and grow given new information. I've always said that my goal with my instruction isn't to be right, but it's to get things right. To that end, I'm about five years late in issuing a public proclamation on something… When I first got my GEARS system, I immediately looked at the golf swings of the dozens and dozens of Tour players for which I suddenly had full 3D data. I created a huge spreadsheet showing how their bodies moved, how the club moved, at various points in the swing. I mapped knee and elbow angles, hand speeds, shoulder turns and pelvis turns… etc. I re-considered what I thought I knew about the golf swing as performed by the best players. One of those things dated back to the earliest days: that you extend (I never taught "straighten" and would avoid using that word unless in the context of saying "don't fully straighten") the trail knee/leg in the backswing. I was mislead by 2D photos from less-than-ideal camera angles — the trail leg rotates a bit during the backswing, and so when observing trail knee flex should also use a camera that moves to stay perpendicular to the plane of the ankle/knee/hip joint. We have at least two topics here on this (here and here; both of which I'll be updating after publishing this) where @mvmac and I advise golfers to extend the trail knee. Learning that this was not right is one of the reasons I'm glad to have a 3D system, as most golfers generally preserve the trail knee flex throughout the backswing. Data Here's a video showing an iron and a driver of someone who has won the career slam: Here's what the graph of his right knee flex looks like. 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Two LIV players and major champions: Two PGA Tour winners: Two women's #1 ranked players: Two more PGA Tour winners (one a major champ): Two former #1s, the left one being a woman, the right a man, with a driver: Two more PGA Tour players: You'll notice a trend: they almost all maintain roughly the same flex throughout their backswing and downswing. The Issues with Extending the Trail Knee You can play good golf extending (again, not "straightening") the trail knee. Some Tour players do. But, as with many things, if 95 out of 100 Tour players do it, you're most likely better off doing similarly to what they do. So, what are the issues with extending the trail knee in the backswing? To list a few: Pelvic Depth and Rotation Quality Suffers When the trail knee extends, the trail leg often acts like an axle on the backswing, with the pelvis rotating around the leg and the trail hip joint. 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    • Day 135 12-25 Wide backswing to wide downswing drill. Recorder and used mirror. 
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