Can we all finally agree that Tiger is done?

[dak4n6]

Meh...IMO this topic is old and abused, and just turns in to a bunch of speculation and devisive arguing between Tiger and anti-Tiger fans. I have better things to speculate about.

[luggage]

Like many of you, I have followed Wood's career since he was at Stanford. He has been a marvelous talent and a tremendous draw for the game of golf.  How good is he now?  Will he ever be as good as he was in his best days?  Who knows?  Nobody!!  Whats more I can't get all worked up about the question.  I love golf and we are very fortunate to be able to see the young and older talent demonstrate their skills.  I especially enjoyed watching Els win recently and see VJ play so well to come up short.  I guess it is natural for folks to have their heroes; I guess Palmer, Nicklaus, Trevino, Player and so many others were mine.  I remember Jack being asked some time before he won his last Masters "Do you ever wonder if you will win again".  His response; "Only when someone like you asks the question".  I respect great talent and I think it was easier to have hero's before the 24hour new cycle.  I'll admit that I have lost respect for Tiger as a man, but his talent was and is undeniable.  Will he break  Nicklaus' record?  I don't know, but I kinda hope he doesn't.  I raised to respect the total man and not just his skill.

[ClayHbg]

Rory played unbelievably this week and when he's "on" like he was yesterday no one can beat him.

But it never ceases to amaze me....Tiger has won more tournaments this year than any other golfer.  He's  #1 on the money list and he's #1 in the FedEx standings.  But when he finished T11 in a major the conversation immediately turns to how his career is over and/or he'll never win another major.

But when Phil or Rory (or Westwood, Kaimer, or Donald) miss cuts repeatedly or finish far from contention...........it's nothing but silence!

[Spyder]

Haha. Agree on something pertaining to Tiger Woods? You have a better chance of reading an article on the Moon/Mars Landing without finding conspiracy theorists.

This topic is not only beat up and hit to the max, it has become plain funny.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by ClayHbg

Rory played unbelievably this week and when he's "on" like he was yesterday no one can beat him.

But it never ceases to amaze me....Tiger has won more tournaments this year than any other golfer.  He's  #1 on the money list and he's #1 in the FedEx standings.  But when he finished T11 in a major the conversation immediately turns to how his career is over and/or he'll never win another major.

But when Phil or Rory (or Westwood, Kaimer, or Donald) miss cuts repeatedly or finish far from contention...........it's nothing but silence!

This thread was started a year ago. Almost to the day.

I thought it was widely accepted that Lee Westwood and Luke Donald were merely footnotes in the history of major championships and Kaymer will likely go down as a one hit wonder. A younger version of Tom Lehman without all the hearbreaking close calls before his lone major win. A lot of people jumped on Rory early this season, and would jump on Phil too if it weren't for his health issues. Injuries and health issues always buy people some time.

[ApocG10]

He won 3 PGA tournaments this year. They just turned out to be the wrong ones. Nobody who wins 3 times in a year is finished.

[Chris Stewart]

He won 3 PGA tournaments this year. They just turned out to be the wrong ones. Nobody who wins 3 times in a year is finished.

This.

[dash1988]

He doesnt want pga tour wins he wants majors, he has openly said he doesnt really care about tour events his main goal is majors and beating nicklaus. There is also alot more pressure to deal with in majors rather than tour events.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by muggs

One very important fact that is always overlooked is the fact that today his competition is MUCH better compared to ten years ago. There are great young players on Tour today. When you add that to the constant swing changes, the mental woes, his body breaking down, getting older...these things take their toll.

Kind of funny how the competition was so much tougher when Jack was at the top, got weak when Tiger was winning his 14 (so far) and now is tough again.

[ERLoft]

Originally Posted by ApocG10

He won 3 PGA tournaments this year. They just turned out to be the wrong ones. Nobody who wins 3 times in a year is finished.

Ditto.

[bamagrad03]

He's the 3rd ranked golfer in the world. If he's finished, so are all but two others. He had a weekend lead in a major...two days ago.

You know, LeBron missed a jumper in the gold medal game yesterday. He's probably finished too...

[onesome]

Originally Posted by ApocG10

He won 3 PGA tournaments this year. They just turned out to be the wrong ones. Nobody who wins 3 times in a year is finished.

THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The way he finished at the memorial was vintage Tiger, anyone who thinks hes not gonna win majors is very misguided, it's not like he has to break out or anything but look at what Phil went through before he finally started winning them and how many regular events did he win before he finally broke through? Evryone knew Phil had what it took just like we know Tiger has it still it's just hes getting everything back together for another big push.

[tristanhilton85]

WTF.. dude's won three times this year and heading into the weekend, contended in three of the four majors. Yes, he hasn't won a major since the '08 US Open, but he has contended in a major each year (in addition to the the majors this year, he was right there in the PGA in '09, and made things pretty interesting at the Masters in '10 and '11). He's not done winning and I'd guess he wins at least another couple of majors. He may never be the dominate force that he was early in his career when he obliterated everybody, but he's coming up on 40 and is in the second half of his career. In my estimation, he still is Player of the Year for 2012 with 3 wins and I like his shot for the FedEx cup.

[tristanhilton85]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

One thread not enough for you? -

http://thesandtrap.com/t/52499/can-we-all-finally-agree-that-tiger-is-done

Merged.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by nevets88

You tipped over to "no" in Woods getting to 19. Do you think it's a combination of age, injuries, psychosomatic, etc ...? Are his instructors holding him back in any way? The announcers said he still has trouble with the left to left shot off the tee but hasn't he always had that problem?

I think he's always had that problem. Lots of right-handed golfers have that problem. It makes you want to pull the ball back into the wind. Hogan hated that wind.

Sean's not holding him back, though I do think that with Tiger's increased knowledge of the golf swing he might have a little doubt in his mind, or his approach might be different. It's not as dire as Brandel and others make it sound, but I think he plays "golf swing" a teeny little bit more than he plays "golf." Hank would tell him "try this" without telling him why - same with Butch - and he'd do it, and if the ball was better, he accepted it. Now it's "do this because of this, and it should result in this" and it probably does, but when something doesn't work on the course, which of the four things that control that was it? Or were three of them slightly off? It's too much. Again, all just a semi-informed guess.

I think he's getting older. I think he's spending more time with his kids and it's taking a little time away from practicing. I think he's trying too hard. I think he feels so much more pressure now than ever to perform. He clearly has the skills, but then moving day rolls around and Tiger moves the wrong direction.

He won Bay Hill with a shitty swing (by his own admission), and won Congressional and Memorial with a better swing, but he trusted it enough and he felt comfortable on those courses. He's always played those courses well. The majors aren't played at courses on which he feels comfortable.

Augusta 2013 will mean a lot. He should be VERY comfortable with his swing by then, and the course should be very comfortable. Less golf swing, more golf.

And I still don't buy the "I went out too relaxed" line of BS.

Originally Posted by saevel25

Well it has to do a lot with swing changes, unless your Bubba Watson these golfers need repetition and consistancy. Especially with Tiger who is a workaholic. When you work on your swing, and make a change, he needs hours upon hours to make that comfortable He's rewriting all those hours he has done before. So there's that, and he's getting better we can see that. Three wins this year is nothing to scoff at.

I think he's had enough time to incorporate the changes at this point. Maybe not an excess amount of time, but enough .

Originally Posted by saevel25

When he was good, it was because he KNEW that his swing was there, he KNEW what the ball was going to do, he didn't have uncertainty. He has uncertainty, and its showing.

I agree.

Originally Posted by saevel25

to fix this, he really needs to stop tinkering with the long game. Accept it at a place he can be at, maybe its not perfect, but he needs to accept some level of completeness in his swing. Then he can go on to the short game and putting and give that attention. Once he's able to have acceptance of his swing, and gain some sort of stability, he'll win more majors. Until then he might have to get lucky to win one, like Rory throwing away the master's a few years ago. Because there are to many guys who can put 4 rounds in the 60's in majors. Its not just Tiger anymore, there's always 1-2 guys who can be there on sunday.

One swing, and if he needs to shape it, a few simple thoughts to do it, but that's it. Same swing, nine windows and ball flights.

Originally Posted by ApocG10

He won 3 PGA tournaments this year. They just turned out to be the wrong ones. Nobody who wins 3 times in a year is finished.

Ask Tiger if this year was a success to him and he'll say it was a limited success. It doesn't matter if he wins every tournament he plays the rest of the year - it was a limited success.

If he wins every tournament - except the majors - that he plays in from here on out, it will be a limited success. He will not be "finished" but he may be "finished" winning enough of the tournaments he needs to reach the number 19.

I think that's what people are saying (and this thread is a year old, when he hadn't won three tournaments, so those people were saying something else entirely.)

[RichF]

People go on and on about Woods having the yips, with both his driver and putter, his training but it's really all mental.
He led the PGA and then choked away the lead over the weekend - has some problems up top. He didn't post a single round under par this year in a major on Saturday or Sunday. No matter what the conditions, no matter how his driver, putter, or anything else was behaving. If one was going good, another thing would malfunction.

Tiger isn't giving himself a lot of birdie opportunities off the tee. When you're laying up and hitting 5 and 6 into greens, you're looking at a 2-putt. Unless he can regain the confidence to use the driver more and sharpen his wedge play like Rors, then he's just fighting an uphill battle in my mind. Haney hit on this in his great book 'The Big Miss' ( if anyone here hasn't read it yet...do your self a favor - read it .): his fear of the driver really showed up at Augusta, where you have to shape off the tee. Can't hit 2 iron stingers there. Many have pointed at Tiger's total driving stat this year, yawwwnnn, but that has been padded by many fairways hit with 2 irons. When he is asked to rely on the driver on big courses, he can't get it done.
The Open Championship highlighted his weakness in the final round. Hitting a 2 into the the wind on a 460 yard par 4 and leaving himself with 230-240 spoke volumes about his lack of confidence in the driver. He has won this year on set ups where he could get around with the 2 (Congressional's hard fairways, and Bay Hill) or where the fairways are wide and you don't have to shape the driver (Muirfield Village).
He has done poorly where the driver is a requirement (TPC, Augusta, Olympic, Lytham, Firestone, Kiawah).

The guy has come to realize that he is no longer viewed as some kind of golf 'bad-ass' who wants to "kick your butt " everytime he tees it up.

The guy is almost 40, hasn't won a Major in over 4 years, and is losing ground on the field daily.
That ain't going to change...no matter how often people use the 'Jack-won-his-last-Major-at-46-so-that-gives-Tiger-plenty-of-time' analogy. That doesn't hold any water when you realise Jack's 18th was a rarity - his last great season came when he was 40.

'The Rors Era', (ridiculous as it sounds - media and general public alike will call it that) is now, regardless of what he's achieved at this time of his career compared to Woods (i.e. massive difference)

[iacas]

Originally Posted by RichF

People go on and on about Woods having the yips, with both his driver and putter, his training but it's really all mental.

They do?

A guy with the yips of his driver AND his putter does not win three times, finish in the top 25 in three of the four majors (let alone top 11 in two of them). That guy doesn't lead the FedEx race, the money list, get ranked third in the world, sit at 21st in GIR, 36th in Driving Accuracy, 39th in Putts Gained, T6 in proximity to the hole (occasionally laying back doesn't seem to hurt him so much does it?), and... first in scoring average.

And... he's pretty good with a driver these days. He's said so himself. His strategy at Lytham was to avoid the bunkers, not to avoid the driver. That hole he hit 2-irons on? The toughest hole on the course? He had birdied it using the same strategy the first three days. Driver was definitely not a requirement at Olympic. Even Jim Furyk hit 3Ws and hybrids off the tee there and he's not long at all. Nor is driver a requirement at TPC.

The facts don't support your pre-determined conclusion.

[Mr. Desmond]

I think Tiger is still in transition.