My Swing (Hogan Project)

[Hogan Project]

Over the past few months, I have done enough discussion and heard enough points of view about what I am trying to accomplish, and I think I am starting to understand the confusion. Many say that it is possible for me to duplicate the swing, but i will never touch Hogan's dynamics.

Here's what I think people are trying to say regarding the dynamics piece:

Hogan gets up to the 1st tee, does his signature swing and hits a 3-wood. Goes 210yds with a piercing, resounding blow that echoes throught the course. Flight of ball is a 5-10 yd power fade. Ball explodes off the tee. Sounds like "BOOM..POW..BAM..CRUSH..BLAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" If NASA engineers were there, they would have measured the impact/velocity/force as off the chart, and in amazement would quickly call scientist from around the globe to research and anaylze this in-human ability.

I get up to the 1st tee, and do an exact duplicate of Hogan's signature swing with my 3-wood. Goes185yds with a semi-piercing, much less resounding blow, that can only echo within the next fairway. Ball doesn't really explode off the tee, but does have some pop. Just sounds like "POP!" Flight of ball is a 10-20 yd draw. If NASA engineers were there, they would have measured the impact/velocity/force as bottom-to-middle of the chart, and wouldn't call anyone.

For me, I have succeded with the project, as my only goal is to duplicate the signature swing.

[Hogan Project]

elevatedcamRF (right front) comparison.

I've been working on the DTL view for past couple of months. Now, ready to move on to my next camera angle. I will be doing EVERY camera angle of EVERY video I can get into my posession. That includes Down-the-line, Front-On, Rear, Overhead, Right-Front, Left Front, grid, etc.

Still focusing on the takeaway/upswing. As you saw in the DTL Take 9 swing, I was getting close, but when you see things from a different angle, such as in this elevated view of the Front-Right side, many flaws jump right out of the screen. This is expected, and will happen as I move on to other camera angles. Just part of the territory.

0:00 to 2:28 : is the initial recording; you can see that my right arm/elbow are doing some strange things, and my left arm isn't straight as it should be.

2:33 to 7:15: After about an hour of tweeking and retweeking, I was able to understand how to make the necessary changes that I was satisfied with for now. I understand what the movements feel like.....and what I feel is not real. Now I need to put in whatever amount of practices to further ingrain the feeling. The cool part about this is that I am still able to do my old swing movements. Kinda like if someone were learning a 2nd language.......they can speak the 2nd language fluently, but somehow their original language is still hiding in their throat lol.....

Other glaring issues:
- my impatient left knee
- my impatient hips
- my leaning head
- my low pants/belt buckle
- and another 25 issues that nobody else may see, but I do.

This is getting fun!!! On second thought, I'll probably be stuck working on this camera angle for a couple of months.........hmmmm...the fun just ended.

[Hogan Project]

One thing I am having difficulty with is my overly-muscular frame. I was heavy into competitive bodybuilding for many years, and packed on a solid muscular foundation. Grrrrrrrr! Too much chest mass! If the chest was flat and birdy, the left arm wouldn’t be so restricted. I can forsee this being a big problem when I get to the transition/downswing study. Left arm is going to be tough to drop down with a swollen, compressed pectoral standing in the way. Or maybe the left arm doesn’t drop straight down……we’ll see when I get to that phase.

[Tom]

wow. i applaud your interest and dedication. i can't say anything but positives to you because you are a man on mission! gotta love that!

i especially love the hogan hat in every video. to me, that says it all!!! you are an inspiration!

[Hogan Project]

PM message:

I admit I gave you a bunch of negative comments and trouble when I first read about this project. Not because I had anything against you, but because I have studied Hogan for many years even before you were born. Hell, I saw him play...in person!!. I’ve seen lots of stupid idiots buy the damn hat and khakis and think if they waggle the club, and swing persimmon, that they are a Hogan clone. When I stumbled across your thread, I was a doubter, and pissed again, and said a few things that were out of place, but very true if you knew my professional golfing background, but with every new video you put up, I’m beginning to think this is maybe possible. Now I did say MAYBE!! And that’s a BIG maybe!!!!!!! A very BIG one!!! So don’t get comfortable by any means. Keep workin at it. This has turned out to be pretty good to keep up with. Now, I consider myself a semi-supporter of your project. Im interested to see how you'll make it through P4, P5, and P6, and what you see the secret to it is. And DO NOT USE MY FREAKIN NAME IN ANY OF YOUR POSTS! That's why this is a PM.

My response:

Thanks for the semi-support, I think lol. Man "John Doe," you just punched me in the stomach a few times and busted my mouth, then kindly straightend my shirt and gave me a tissue to clean my lip lol. Actually your earlier comments were not negative to me, they were just a rushed judgment. Based on my old thinking, I would have said the same things. I have no idea if I will accomplish the Hogan swing, but I have a good idea that I will try and try again unitl all the trying is gone from me........then I'll gather myself, replenish, and start the trying process all over again. I highly respect that you saw Hogan play, and look forward to your honest, but violent way of critiquing me lol. Now, my wife is another story. When she read your PM, she was pissed (and I was lovin every minute of it because looks like she is more involved in the project than she wants to admit lol). She said "how can he say all that disrespectful stuff to you, then want to be best friends?? SOME PEOPLE! You need to block his messages." I saw no disrespect at all........just a true Hogan fan not afraid of tellin it like it is.

One very curious line in your message....."professional golfing background." In what capacity? Player, coach, or what??? Again, thanks for the semi-support lol, and looking forward to more fights in the future lolollool. Now I gotta research what P4, P5, and P6 mean.
Ben Hogan Swing Project

Boy, I hope posting this doesn't cause any problems lol. But he, or maybe even she, only said "DO NOT USE MY FREAKIN NAME IN ANY OF YOUR POSTS!" They never said, "don't post my freaking posts."

[Hogan Project]

Quote:

wow. i applaud your interest and dedication. i can't say anything but positives to you because you are a man on mission! gotta love that!

i especially love the hogan hat in every video. to me, that says it all!!! you are an inspiration!

Thanks Tom.

My ultimate goal is to be able to do the swing without the hat, and have someone recognize it as Hogan's. One thing I find when I go to the course is people coming up to me saying, "How long you been playin? You know, your swing looks just like Hogans. Did you work with a swing instructor or something?"

My response is always "Been dabling with the swing and the game for about 4 years now. Trust me, the hat is just giving you that impression; my swing is absolutely nowhere near Hogans....YET. And I always say that I'm still looking for a swing instructor...." .but I never tell them that I already found him in my basement lol.

[Hogan Project]

This guy Richard Elliot does a few golfer imitations. He does Colin Montgomerie very well. He's just having fun mimiking it with it for the camera and while at seminars/clinics. Anyone that has followed the European tour when Monte was hot may have an idea of how Monte swings and his signature moves. The preshot routine, setup, and swing that Richard Elliot does looks veeeeeeery close. I've never analyzed Elliot vs Montgomerie, but even before I even had to do that, I could easily recognize who he is imitating.

What's his ball flight? I have no idea and no care.

Will he join the European Tour since he's able to mimick Monte's swing? Probably not, but he could easily join European Tour clinics and pro/ams.

If he shows up to a driving range, and does his full Monte imitation, will anyone recognize it as the swing of Colin Montgomery? Yep

I wonder why no on thinks the same cannot be done with Hogan? Maybe when someone is at the top of his sport and is thought to be an icon/legend, they cannot be touched........just a thought.

[Hogan Project]

PM message:

Can you do an analysis of Hogan's swing with audio? Would be interested to see what you describe is happening. Also would be helpful if you can add audio to your own Hogan Project videos so I could get more of an understanding of what you are doing, because I am reading the 5 Fundamentals book and working towards some of what Hogan teaches. I'm also trying to find his secret too.

My response:

Once I am finished with the entire project, I will do a full analysis of Hogan, including the audio. Not trying to be funny, but at this point, the only analysis I could offer is that he is standing on two feet, has a golf club in his hands, club went above his head, and then hit the ball, and he is watching it go bye-bye. Unlike many others out there, I am not a good armchair quarterback. I can only speak to what I am actually doing. When I hear someone say something like: "Hogan was bringing the club into the ball by intentionally supinating the left wrist and rolling the forearm, becuase he was thinking of avoiding the left side, while mainting 34.7766 percent of his weight on his big toe. His intentions were to pitch the right elbow and bilaterally make his right hand split into three mini hands," I chuckle. Maybe they have some type of special psychic ability to know what he was thinking, but I do not. Right now, I have no idea what was going on in his swing.......well, actually I do have an idea about a few things, but they don't matter until I get finished with it all.....around my 80th birthday lol.

I'll look into adding audio to my practice videos.

Regarding the 5 Fundamentals book, I haven't read it yet, but I'm looking forward to doing so when I've accomplshed my mission. It's gonna be interesting to see if he describes what I am doing.

I'm looking forward to you posting your swing videos, and like I've said thousands, of thousands of times. There Is No Secret. Everything he is doing is right there in EVERY video. Heck, he even told you what he was doing and even demonstrated it in his "Well, the most important...uhhhh....thing in the golf swing to me is" video lol!

Ben Hogan Swing Project

[LongballGer]

Pretty cool idea.

Just don´t expect to magically hit the ball perfectly, even if you hit the same positions that Hogan does. Theoretically two people could have identical swings while one golfer hits the ball well and the other can´t break 100 with the same swing. That´s why you see a lot of good amateurs that have "technically perfect swings", but never win anything.

The reason is that it takes roughly 50,000 swings to make a golf swing somewhat automatic. So for a normal amateur it´ll take around 5-10 years to make a swing fully automatic.

Good luck.

[Hogan Project]

Quote:

Pretty cool idea.

Just don´t expect to magically hit the ball perfectly, even if you hit the same positions that Hogan does. Theoretically two people could have identical swings while one golfer hits the ball well and the other can´t break 100 with the same swing. That´s why you see a lot of good amateurs that have "technically perfect swings", but never win anything.

The reason is that it takes roughly 50,000 swings to make a golf swing somewhat automatic. So for a normal amateur it´ll take around 5-10 years to make a swing fully automatic.

Good luck.

Thanks LongballGer.

The absolute and only goal of my current project is to see how close I can come to matching, or duplicating the Hogan swing. Has nothing to do with the dynamics. Once the swing matches, the next project will be "The Ben Hogan Golf Swing Project - duplicating his trajectory/force/contact/ball flight etc."

Also, I have no desire to win anything. Just want to go out on a Saturday morning with the friends and family and play a round........um....that is, play a round with Hogan's swing.

[mchepp]

When I first started reading your thread I thought you had a serious interest in swinging like Hogan. I think that is a noble goal. To be basically a "side show" act is far less noble. The video of Monty is mocking him, so you want to learn how to mock Hogan? The fact that you won't even read the book to which he claimed he put everything he knew about in the swing into makes this seem like a farce.

As an aside, I do think they will eventually make a Hogan movie and potentially you could be the lead based on all your work.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by mchepp

When I first started reading your thread I thought you had a serious interest in swinging like Hogan. I think that is a noble goal. To be basically a "side show" act is far less noble. The video of Monty is mocking him, so you want to learn how to mock Hogan?

I don't know if I'd agree that an impersonation is necessarily a mockery. For example, I know several celebrities have been quoted as saying they've enjoyed the impressions that have been done of them by various SNL cast members - to the extent that some of them have performed skits side by side with their impersonators.

IMO the impersonator doing Monty is not a mockery, and the project this thread is about is even less of one.

[RC]

Getting a few "positions" quite similar to Hogan is not where your swing is missing it.  At impact, your hips are maybe 30 degrees behind the way Hogan opened up.  That will be the hardest thing for you to perfect, but that is where clubhead speed comes from.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by mchepp

When I first started reading your thread I thought you had a serious interest in swinging like Hogan. I think that is a noble goal. To be basically a "side show" act is far less noble. The video of Monty is mocking him, so you want to learn how to mock Hogan?

I don't know if I'd agree that an impersonation is necessarily a mockery. For example, I know several celebrities have been quoted as saying they've enjoyed the impressions that have been done of them by various SNL cast members - to the extent that some of them have performed skits side by side with their impersonators.

IMO the impersonator doing Monty is not a mockery, and the project this thread is about is even less of one.

The people who claim to not be offended by their SNL imitators are typically attention starved. Ask older pro golfers how much they loved being parodied br Peter Jacobsen.

Eiter way, Ben Hogan is dead so who cares?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

The people who claim to not be offended by their SNL imitators are typically attention starved. Ask older pro golfers how much they loved being parodied br Peter Jacobsen.

Eiter way, Ben Hogan is dead so who cares?

Re. your first comments: I *would* like to ask older pro golfers how they feel about the impressions, as I am genuinely curious. I don't think either of us can predict with any certainty what each one would say - I'm guessing the responses would vary, just as our opinions on this vary... I will say though that we often project our own feelings onto how we think others would feel - i.e., you may feel that if you were in their shoes, you wouldn't appreciate being impersonated/parodied, and that's perfectly valid. I OTOH like to think I have an ability to laugh at myself and my mannerisms and/or eccentricities, and if I were a famous golfer and a renowned impersonator wanted to try to mimic those, I would consider it an endearing tribute.

Furthermore, I don't think any disrespect or mockery is intended by Richard Gillot or Peter Jacobsen when they do their impressions, and it *obviously* is not the intent of the OP in this thread to mock Hogan.  And I'll say again that I don't think the act of impersonating anyone is necessarily a "mockery" in and of itself. That was the only point I wanted to make.

Re. your last comment: If I thought actual mockery of Hogan was going on in this thread, I'd feel that was bad form regardless of whether he was still alive or not. I'm not saying everyone has to agree with me on that, just stating my opinion.

[Shorty]

Originally Posted by mchepp

As an aside, I do think they will eventually make a Hogan movie and potentially you could be the lead based on all your work.

1. There's already been one - "Follow the Sun"

2. Er....ah....you might want to have a closer look at the OP in his videos........

[Tom]

Originally Posted by Hogan Project

Quote:

Thanks Tom.

My ultimate goal is to be able to do the swing without the hat, and have someone recognize it as Hogan's. One thing I find when I go to the course is people coming up to me saying, "How long you been playin? You know, your swing looks just like Hogans. Did you work with a swing instructor or something?"

My response is always "Been dabling with the swing and the game for about 4 years now. Trust me, the hat is just giving you that impression; my swing is absolutely nowhere near Hogans....YET. And I always say that I'm still looking for a swing instructor...." .but I never tell them that I already found him in my basement lol.

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

Well, that's all fine and good... I guess... it depends what you're trying to accomplish. Myself? I picked up the game in April 2008. I broke 70 (a 69) April 14, 2010. This past season (2011) I shot in the 60's more than I shot in the 80's. My low round (July 6th, 2011) was 64. I played yesterday, had seven birdies and shot 68 (yeah, if it had been a perfect round would have shot 65, but no one is perfect). My swing is below... I've never been told I look like Hogan, Woods, Couples, etc., but when I rattle off birdie after birdie, get on most par 5s in two, people don't wonder what I look like cause my game says it all. And, because I play "my own game" I don't worry about looking like some other great player. I'm not trying to belittle what you're doing, in the least, I'm just sitting here wondering the purpose. Hope you get good, and most importantly, when you decide to play against high caliber players, that your swing stands up...

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

The people who claim to not be offended by their SNL imitators are typically attention starved. Ask older pro golfers how much they loved being parodied br Peter Jacobsen.

Eiter way, Ben Hogan is dead so who cares?

Re. your first comments: I *would* like to ask older pro golfers how they feel about the impressions, as I am genuinely curious. I don't think either of us can predict with any certainty what each one would say - I'm guessing the responses would vary, just as our opinions on this vary... I will say though that we often project our own feelings onto how we think others would feel - i.e., you may feel that if you were in their shoes, you wouldn't appreciate being impersonated/parodied, and that's perfectly valid. I OTOH like to think I have an ability to laugh at myself and my mannerisms and/or eccentricities, and if I were a famous golfer and a renowned impersonator wanted to try to mimic those, I would consider it an endearing tribute.

Furthermore, I don't think any disrespect or mockery is intended by Richard Gillot or Peter Jacobsen when they do their impressions, and it *obviously* is not the intent of the OP in this thread to mock Hogan.  And I'll say again that I don't think the act of impersonating anyone is necessarily a "mockery" in and of itself. That was the only point I wanted to make.

Re. your last comment: If I thought actual mockery of Hogan was going on in this thread, I'd feel that was bad form regardless of whether he was still alive or not. I'm not saying everyone has to agree with me on that, just stating my opinion.

Not sure why you chose to make this personal, but that's your choice I suppose. I'll just say that I've seen a few of Jacobsen's parodies, with the parodied player present, to know what killing someone with your thoughts looks like. They looked like someone pretending to laugh while imagining punching Jake in the face, with a shovel.

It's like playing a round with Lee Trevino. For ever hacker who thinks they'd love it, there are probably a dozen ex-competitors who saw right through his gamesmanship. They way they phrase comments about Lee's sense of humour is telling.