More on Lag

[KevCarter]

OK, starting to make more sense to me now that I see the way you are defining "lag." Homer teaches us that the reason we are creating out of line conditions in the PA's is so we can bring them back into line, releasing them. If we don't release them, what is he point???

YODA teaches "The secret to golf is not a position, it's a PRESSURE."

So, if we consider "lag" as a PRESSURE as I've been taught, rather than an angle, are we closer to being on the same page? I'm not in agreement with those who say we don't want to create any force across the shaft... Gotta run, going to go drag my wet mop... :-)

Thanks,

Kevin

Originally Posted by iacas

Golfers far and wide want "more lag." But why? And what is "lag"?

If I were to define "lag" it would simply be "the shaft trailing behind the lead arm." You have no lag when you reach what's called an "inline" condition - the shaft is "in line with" the left (lead) arm. The smaller the angle between the shaft and the left arm, the more "lag" you've got.

Lag serves two purposes.

The first is that it helps us to control the low point of the swing. If you flip, your low point is likely too far back. The low point of the swing, for most good golf swings is generally under the left shoulder. Also generally, that's when a good player will "run out of lag" and reach an inline condition with the left arm-shaft. If you lengthen the radius of the left shoulder to the clubhead prematurely, the clubhead will be ascending when it reaches a spot beneath the left shoulder. So the proper timing of that "long radius" to be roughly at low point is important.

The second is both the aid to acceleration and the instantaneous speed achieved by delaying lag as long as possible. I'l talk briefly about both.

The first is simply this. Imagine a golf swing in which the shaft simply stayed inline with the left arm. Imagine moving your left arm across your chest or rotating your entire chest in a circle with in this sort of fashion. Now imagine taping your driver or sand wedge so that the clubhead was by your shoulder and the grip was taped to your hand. You can imagine how swinging your left arm across your chest or spinning your torso (or in terms of the golf swing, doing both at the same time) would be faster because the mass is located closer to the center of the circle. So that's one way in which lag helps - you can accelerate from the top of the backswing more with "more lag" (as defined, again, by the angle between the left arm and shaft).

The second way lag helps with clubhead speed is that you're able to snap the clubhead down quickly just before impact, resulting in near instantaneous speed. You can look up the "small pulley" stuff in TGM if you'd like, but consider a ball on a string. If you grab one end of the string with a ball or a rock on the other end, and you want to get the ball moving as quickly as possible, you don't swing your arm around your body in big circles. You swing it in small, tight circles. These tight circles result in a higher linear velocity than big, slow circles.

The problem is that the latter can be tough to time. Sergio Garcia is a good example of the latter - he employs more of a "snap" release. But Jason Zuback has a "sweep" release and hits the ball just fine. I won't get into the differences there, but will point out that both are highly effective.

The one commonality? All good golf swings have some lag until impact or slightly after impact, particularly on shots struck from the ground (you can flip just slightly with the driver since low point can be behind the golf ball).

Two take-aways:

Too much lag is almost worse than too little.

It's not so much how much lag you've got, it's when you cease to have any that matters.

[iacas]

First, to bunkerputt, I think you're doing well and are on a good path. I really enjoyed your last post. Keep it up.

Kevin,

Originally Posted by KevCarter

OK, starting to make more sense to me now that I see the way you are defining "lag." Homer teaches us that the reason we are creating out of line conditions in the PA's is so we can bring them back into line, releasing them. If we don't release them, what is he point???

Exactly. If we "accumulate" power but never release it, that's no good. If we release it too soon, not only will it be inefficient but the clubface, path, low point control, etc. will tend to go all haywire.

Ideally we want things to line up shortly after impact - and heck, as quickly after impact as possible, I might say. AFTER impact so that things are still under control, but CLOSE to impact so that we get maximum "release" into the golf ball.

Originally Posted by KevCarter

YODA teaches "The secret to golf is not a position, it's a PRESSURE."

So, if we consider "lag" as a PRESSURE as I've been taught, rather than an angle, are we closer to being on the same page? I'm not in agreement with those who say we don't want to create any force across the shaft... Gotta run, going to go drag my wet mop... :-)

Smart aleck. ;-)

I think that the data showing no force across the shaft at impact is likely valid. But as you go backwards through the downswing, you'll find that the later the force disappears (i.e. the club is "thrown") then the better the player is likely to be.

I do think Lynn and Homer may have taken it too far in suggesting that the pressure needs to be maintained beyond impact . BUT - and this is a big but - 99%+ of golfers need to feel like they maintain it past impact because they're giving it up before impact right now.

Again, the certain folks who think they've discovered something new only seem to be accounting for the 1% of golfers who have too much shaft lean at impact. How many golfers have you seen, Kevin, with that problem? Can count 'em on both of your hands in 30 years of teaching, would be my guess...

[KevCarter]

Thanks very much for the reply Erik. I know I am going to enjoy it here. You guys find new ideas but don't throw the old methods that got us this far under the bus while presenting them. This is the way the teaching community is supposed to work (together) ! YODA is my mentor and I hope you don't mind me mentioning his ideas in these threads as well. Like you, he has his own twists/additions/refinements to the machine, Homer would appreciate the way both groups are progressing IMHO....

“Because of questions of all kinds, reams of additional detail must be made available—but separately. And probably endlessly. (1-H) -- ” Homer Kelley

Kevin

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by bunkerputt

"fake" lag

I googled this to see what you're talking about, and that led me to this post on the Richie3Jack blog. And this one .

I didn't like the videos discussed in the blog post. The guy was sort of on the right track for a minute there but he had a poor way of stating his ideas IMO.

But I still don't really understand what "fake lag" is. To summarize both blog posts in regards to fake lag, Richie explained it as, "IMO, 'fake lag' is when a golfer has the clubhead lagging behind the hands, but does it with either no lag pressure or improper use of lag pressure."

The fact that he used an "IMO" leads me to believe that "fake lag" is not a defined termed in the world of golf by anyone. That sort of makes me think the whole idea is bullshit. It's just a term that sounds good when you're talking with amateurs.... Or, I just don't know what I'm talking about again (probably the case ).

But what does he mean by no "lag pressure" or "improper use of lag pressure?" If you're taking a full swing and you have forward shaft lean at impact, aren't you more or less creating "proper use of lag pressure" simply because the hands are ahead at impact? Lets assume the hands are a "correct" amount ahead for the sake of this question.

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

BUT - and this is a big but - 99%+ of golfers need to feel like they maintain it past impact because they're giving it up before impact right now.

This is sort of my point. Feeling "fake lag" or whatever is critical to the player who has no lag. How else are you going to get the student to get his hands ahead of the ball without force feeding him palmar flexion of the lead wrist and instructing him to raise the handle somewhat?

Sorry if this is off-topic BTW.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by KevCarter

Thanks very much for the reply Erik. I know I am going to enjoy it here. You guys find new ideas but don't throw the old methods that got us this far under the bus while presenting them. This is the way the teaching community is supposed to work (together) ! YODA is my mentor and I hope you don't mind me mentioning his ideas in these threads as well. Like you, he has his own twists/additions/refinements to the machine, Homer would appreciate the way both groups are progressing IMHO....

I appreciate and enjoy his teachings as well.

He's provably wrong on some points - that hinge actions can affect ball flight, for example - but he - like TGM itself - is right about more than he is wrong. Mention him all you'd like!

[iacas]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

The fact that he used an "IMO" leads me to believe that "fake lag" is not a defined termed in the world of golf by anyone. That sort of makes me think the whole idea is bullshit. It's just a term that sounds good when you're talking with amateurs.... Or, I just don't know what I'm talking about again (probably the case ).

"Fake" lag isn't a defined term, no. Not so far as I know anyway.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

But what does he mean by no "lag pressure" or "improper use of lag pressure?" If you're taking a full swing and you have forward shaft lean at impact, aren't you more or less creating "proper use of lag pressure" simply because the hands are ahead at impact? Lets assume the hands are a "correct" amount ahead for the sake of this question.

You can have the hands ahead with "no lag pressure." And you can have tremendous lag at the top of your backswing and into transition without any real lag pressure. Some golfers will almost take their right hand off the grip in transition. Where's their lag pressure? But they can get a "look" of "tremendous lag" at P4 or P5.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

This is sort of my point. Feeling "fake lag" or whatever is critical to the player who has no lag. How else are you going to get the student to get his hands ahead of the ball without force feeding him palmar flexion of the lead wrist and instructing him to raise the handle somewhat?

To be clear, and perhaps my paragraph just above will help, but "fake lag" in the sense of "creating a laggy looking downswing" isn't any better than someone who just casts it from the top.

"Fake lag" is someone who looks like they have lag but, when they get to impact, have flipped. That's not "lag" at all. It's the appearance of lag but the only true place you can measure "lag" is at impact. The shaft should be ever so slightly "lagged" behind the left arm.

The "fake lag" is what he's chosen to call someone who has a TON of "lag" (shaft behind left arm) at some part in the downswing but which gets thrown out too quickly, too early in the downswing so that when they get to impact they have flipped.

[JetFan1983]

Ah, okay, I'm following you guys a lot better now. Thank you for explaining that.

[bunkerputt]

Originally Posted by iacas

The "fake lag" is what he's chosen to call someone who has a TON of "lag" (shaft behind left arm) at some part in the downswing but which gets thrown out too quickly, too early in the downswing so that when they get to impact they have flipped.

This is definitely true, and a good synopsis.  It was a new term to me.  I'd add to it that, since nearly everyone regardless of handicap, at some point in their downswing has some amount (however little) of club head lag, what the term is addressing is the attempt to create forward shaft lean at impact by creating angles in the early downswing .  For example, I can create a lot of "lag" by float-loading the shaft, downcocking using only my arms in the transition and leaving my body turned away from the target.  But if I were to try to hit a golf ball, I'd have to get my body left, and there'd be no way I could catch up with the speed the club was already moving.  Stopping the arms and holding the angle is just as ineffective.  There is no way to keep the club accelerating at this point.  I had to use all my speed to create "lag" at the top, and there isn't any left over for the bottom where it really counts.

[mchepp]

Fake lag in my mind can also be created by camera angles. I can lay off the shaft and appear to have Hogan like lag but not really have any lag at all. Rickie Fowler does this in my mind. At P5 he has tons o lag, but seems to flip I think that is because he has laid off the shaft and faked lag.

Fake Lag could be another good topic in this section.

[MiniBlueDragon]

What I was attempting (badly!) to describe by "artificial" lag is simple a cocked wrist which is intentionally held in a cocked position and then manually released when the player feels it's the correct time to do so. The issue with that is that it basically means you have to time the dumping of that lag within the tiny time-slot of a golf swing which would of course lead to inconsistency.

For me that's entirely different to "real" lag where the club remains in a cocked position solely due to the rotation of the body and then arms ahead of it. That "real" lag is then automatically dumped as the hands come into impact as long as the wrists are left to do their thing and not be manipulated.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

What I was attempting (badly!) to describe by "artificial" lag is simple a cocked wrist which is intentionally held in a cocked position and then manually released when the player feels it's the correct time to do so. The issue with that is that it basically means you have to time the dumping of that lag within the tiny time-slot of a golf swing which would of course lead to inconsistency.

For me that's entirely different to "real" lag where the club remains in a cocked position solely due to the rotation of the body and then arms ahead of it. That "real" lag is then automatically dumped as the hands come into impact as long as the wrists are left to do their thing and not be manipulated.

I definitely fall into the first category as, for now(!), am incapable of creating 'real' lag without flipping. Years of being told to loosen the wrists and turn the right wrist over the left through impact have ruined my ball compression. At least with 'artificial' lag, I am now starting the hit the ball properly. I need to have that feeling of holding on for as long as possible and not manipulating the clubhead with my hands.

[The_Pharaoh]

Is it possible to set up for a push draw, come over the top and not flip the club to some degree? The very act of coming over the top seems to be a casting action from what I can see/feel. The reason I ask is because recently I have been working on lag and getting some excellent results, however I can't eliminate the flip completely. I start to lose lag the moment I start down (OTT) so begin to manually hold my wrist cock until I get close to impact. I then manually release it at the ball where I think impact should be. The results are better than you'd imagine, but I still find myself aiming way right to play the resulting pull-draw.

Is it recommendable to work on attacking the ball more from the inside in order to obtain the correct amount of lag, or should I work on lag in order to sort out my faulty club path?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

The very act of coming over the top seems to be a casting action from what I can see/feel.

Though "flipping" and "coming over the top" may go hand in hand for the most part, they're not at all "the same."

[WilsonWedgeMan]

"hold the angle"...once I started using that ,and only that thought..I started hitting better..instantly. now, I hit my balls when most are still in bed..and its' dark...and I have no light other than ambient lighting for the hospital fuel tanks ( 300 yds)...so the only report I get is from the impact...that,too tells alot... when I think Hold the Angle, the ball makes pure contact..when my mind wanders,and it does alot, the contact isn't so good. I recommend this type practice for anyone, as it's foundation is the swing, and not the results,because you can't see a golf ball flyi @ 6am..at least not until it starts getting daylight earlier. yet, when you go out to pick 'em up, yuou'll know if it was a good morning, or bad day..and I've had both. now to hit the course and try that thought out in daylight....

[DublinMeUp]

Quick question, would you guys say that achieving lag comes from building a swing through good fundamentals or do you achieve a good swing by trying to get lag? I.e is it: good swing = lag or lag = good swing Hope this isn't a stupid question ;-)

[MiniBlueDragon]

Good swing produces lag.

You can lag the club but still swing over the top or still release through impact or many other things which are not ideal in a golf swing.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by DublinMeUp

Hope this isn't a stupid question

It's not at all.

[LuukH1]

hee guys I am a left handed player from the Netherlands and quite new to the game of golf, but it got me hooked from the first time I played. Now I want to get better and I heard about the term "lag", I have a question about this.
Is real lag(like the snap lag somebody was posting) coming from my left hand?? (for right handed the other) or your lead hand. Because I have been hearing that my left hand should be the dominant arm in the golf swing. I think I focus too much on this. (Everything what is told to me btw, when my teacher told me I had to come more from the inside the result was that my club was going parallel to the ground round my body :P)
anyways back to the subject, I was holding a small light club in one of my hands and I found out that, making swings, I could create so much more speed with my left hand than my right hand. because of this snap in the end. like the rock throwing thing on the water. the flat rock when you want to skip them on the water.

so basically the question is if the real snap speed(is it lag(?)) comes from my left hand?.

thanks for any help

greetings from a lefty