So much for lessons.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by Kobey

I guess I'm just afraid that if I took lessons I might get worse before I got better.  And since I don't have a lot of time to golf, that worse period may stretch for quite a while and take a lot of the fun out of the game for me.  The way I am now I at least have some good shots that make it worthwhile.  Then again, if I took lessons, maybe I could move to florida and go pro in a few years. I'm only 48, there's still time right?

I just turned 46, so Im in the same sort of boat.

Believe me, Ive progressed very quickly just since the end of summer this year by watching tons of instructional videos and getting help from friends who are good golfers (make sure they ARE good golfers and not hacks by getting their scores) and from forums like this one.

Heres a good video that has been a lot of help.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s72KM6pCi-Y&feature;=related

Not that I think this guy has all the answers, but just breaking down the swing into basics has been a HUGE help. At first I try to mimic each position in order, doing it faster and faster until its a real swing and wow...the  ball has been doing what its supposed to do.

Then I added stuff in like this one for the swing path....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OO8tx9jLnQA&feature;=player_embedded

Which again, I dont think this kid has all the answers, but understanding the basics means I can self correct most of the time when I do something wrong.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I guess the answer is:  There is no RIGHT way to play golf.  Many people have many different opinions on how to best apply the club to the ball, some work for some people and don't work for others. The secret, as stated above, is to find the right instructor for you and you alone.

Now, I do agree with you for the most part, but I think it's important to point out that there are a lot of instructors out there who are bad for everyone.

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

So the conclusion is that there is no "right" way to swing a golf club. The only part of a golf swing that is 90% similar among all good golfers is impact and how you get to impact is pretty much irrelevant. It's the "moment of truth" as they say.

We both know there are more similarities between the games best players than just impact. Inward hands, weight forward, handle forward, controlled low-point, and axis tilt to name a few.

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Take a look at various pro swings from Charlie Wi to Rory McIlroy to Jim Furyk to Ernie Els and you'll see they're all completely different

To the untrained eye, yes. To the trained eye they do a ton of the same things.

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

that demonstrates the above assertion that a swing should be whatever your body and mind find the easiest to perform repeatedly and consistently and that you should be trying to find a teaching pro who can work with what you and your body are capable of, not a single swing that every student must conform to.

To a point yes. Anything that is too complicated to learn and repeat is bad. But going through swing changes takes hard work, and one should be prepared to feel uncomfortable and different. You will have struggles, even though your good swings should now become better quite quickly.

There is not a single swing we all must conform to, but all good players do a lot of the same things. Ultimately, as it has been said a few times already on here, the laws of physics govern us all, whether we like it or not. And all the best players have conformed to those laws, whether they are aware of it or not.

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

But if there is no 'right' way, then where does the instructor even begin?

I mean, say he's trying to get me to do something Im physically incapable of doing because in his mind I have to do it that way?

Which begs the question, what is the point of an instructor to begin with if there is no 'right' way? Whats the starting point? When is it 'right' ?

Fully and finally it would seem that if there is no 'right' way then instruction is pointless except at this 'point of impact'....which just leaves me thinking that Im better off just reading a lot of material and watching the pros and trying to work on my swing myself to see what works.

Very confusing

You are asking a ton of great questions. Many instructors give tips in the wrong order, not understanding how to prioritize and pin point the most glaring issue.

The starting point for me is getting the student to understand that he needs to have consistent control of his low point. All good players hit the ground in the same place time and time again.

Originally Posted by Kobey

Good points.  That's exactly why I am reluctant to take lessons.  How do you even know if an instructor is right for you until it is too late?  I am happy with the progress I am making on part of my game.  I'm driving between 250 and 270 and generally straight after one summer of practicing (about 10 or so rounds).  My putting is coming along pretty good as well.  But everything in between I look like a 7 year old on steroids.  If I tell an instructor that I only want to work on my irons, will he happily oblige me or will his ego get in the way and try to make me learn what he wants me to?  I don't know anyone who has ever had lessons so I don't know the first thing about how they usually work.

You can only know by studying golf: reading, video watching, reading posts on this forum, talking to smart golf people in person -- and determining for yourself who knows they are talking about who doesn't. It takes a lot of time and studying.

If you only want to work on your irons, then tell your instructor that. He's a human being too. You guys will just discuss and talk everything out. Ask him questions. Trust is hard to develop, so it helps if you are armed with good information before you even get there.

Originally Posted by Harmonious

A good teacher should be able to quickly recognize things in your swing that could use some help.  After all, this would not be his first rodeo, even if it is yours. If he/she is good, there will be no ego problem, unless you don't want to follow what you are being taught, and immediately question and/or doubt everything.  Then the ego problem would be yours, and you probably shouldn't take lessons.

Just a guess, but if you hit your irons poorly, your driver swing probably also needs work, too.

Agreed.

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Well a good place to start is with the grip.  Watching my friend (club pro) get a lesson it started with a review of his grip.  Seems that he was creeping the grip out of his fingers of his right hand and more into his palm.  The guy working with him told me that he didn't care how well someone swung the club because it wouldn't matter if you had a bad "hold" ( grip).

I agree with you that the club should rest more in the fingers than the palm. But you can still have a terrible grip and hit the ball in the air as long as your weight it forward and the handle of the club is forward and ahead of the ball at impact.

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

From the grip there are many other fundamentals to work on including stance, alignment, and balance.  This is before you have even swung the club.  Impact is the moment of truth and getting there you start seeing the different methodologies play out and then again till finish.

If you decide to go it alone, I would recommend working on tempo and balance.  Save the technical aspects for a trained eye.  It will save you years finding someone you click with.

All due respect, but really? How can you still think stance, alignment, and grip are fundamental at this point? They are important, but they are variables. So many good players don't have the same grip, stance, and alignment. I thought this had been well established around here for a long time.

Originally Posted by Kobey

I guess I'm just afraid that if I took lessons I might get worse before I got better.  And since I don't have a lot of time to golf, that worse period may stretch for quite a while and take a lot of the fun out of the game for me.

You might. Making changes isn't easy. Unless you have great talent. Granted, you may get better quite quickly if the teacher spots your most glaring weakness immediately and tells you the best way to fix it. In that sense, you could get better right away.

***

Anyway, all the regulars should know the source of my information, which is the Stack and Tilt swing. I find it to be quite empowering, especially if you're an untalented player such as myself with no natural ability whatsoever. It's great at dispelling the myths and explaining the "whys" to many questions many players often ask but never find the answer to.

I'm not saying "swing like this." But you could benefit from reading the book and seeing what you think about it. It could help you in your search. There are many, many good instructors out there, and most of them aren't Stack and Tilt guys. The problem though is, they can be difficult to find in the ocean of all the terrible teachers out there. At least this book arms you with strong information, which can make the search a lot easier IMO.

Give it a chance sometime.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Now, I do agree with you for the most part, but I think it's important to point out that there are a lot of instructors out there who are bad for everyone.

We both know there are more similarities between the games best players than just impact. Inward hands, weight forward, handle forward, controlled low-point, and axis tilt to name a few.

To the untrained eye, yes. To the trained eye they do a ton of the same things.

To a point yes. Anything that is too complicated to learn and repeat is bad. But going through swing changes takes hard work, and one should be prepared to feel uncomfortable and different. You will have struggles, even though your good swings should now become better quite quickly.

There is not a single swing we all must conform to, but all good players do a lot of the same things. Ultimately, as it has been said a few times already on here, the laws of physics govern us all, whether we like it or not. And all the best players have conformed to those laws, whether they are aware of it or not.

You are asking a ton of great questions. Many instructors give tips in the wrong order, not understanding how to prioritize and pin point the most glaring issue.

The starting point for me is getting the student to understand that he needs to have consistent control of his low point. All good players hit the ground in the same place time and time again.

You can only know by studying golf: reading, video watching, reading posts on this forum, talking to smart golf people in person -- and determining for yourself who knows they are talking about who doesn't. It takes a lot of time and studying.

If you only want to work on your irons, then tell your instructor that. He's a human being too. You guys will just discuss and talk everything out. Ask him questions. Trust is hard to develop, so it helps if you are armed with good information before you even get there.

Agreed.

I agree with you that the club should rest more in the fingers than the palm. But you can still have a terrible grip and hit the ball in the air as long as your weight it forward and the handle of the club is forward and ahead of the ball at impact.

All due respect, but really? How can you still think stance, alignment, and grip are fundamental at this point? They are important, but they are variables. So many good players don't have the same grip, stance, and alignment. I thought this had been well established around here for a long time.

You might. Making changes isn't easy. Unless you have great talent. Granted, you may get better quite quickly if the teacher spots your most glaring weakness immediately and tells you the best way to fix it. In that sense, you could get better right away.

***

Anyway, all the regulars should know the source of my information, which is the Stack and Tilt swing. I find it to be quite empowering, especially if you're an untalented player such as myself with no natural ability whatsoever. It's great at dispelling the myths and explaining the "whys" to many questions many players often ask but never find the answer to.

I'm not saying "swing like this." But you could benefit from reading the book and seeing what you think about it. It could help you in your search. There are many, many good instructors out there, and most of them aren't Stack and Tilt guys. The problem though is, they can be difficult to find in the ocean of all the terrible teachers out there. At least this book arms you with strong information, which can make the search a lot easier IMO.

Give it a chance sometime.

Seriously Jet,

Is there really an ocean of bad instructors out there?  I have been in or around the industry for a while and there are good and bad, but I wouldn't make it sound like a decent instructor is so hard to find. Maybe it is because I live in South Florida, where there is an over abundance of golf industry folks that seem to be pretty decent as a whole.

I think my comments on grip, stance, alignment, etc are pretty fundamental as far as what the average guy could benefit from within 20 minutes in the presence of any decent instructor.  Just the simply concept of alignment can make a difference.  Some guys that play with us infrequently will concede and on the back nine ask for a tip. I try not to do it, but more often than not it is something like, Maybe you should be aligned to general direction to the target.  I hear that they think they are, until you lay the club down and show them their feet are pointed 15 degrees to the right and their shoulders are pointed 20 degrees left while they sit on the heels of their feet with the club shoved up into their palms as they fall off the tee box trying to hit that little white ball that just taunts them by remaining quiet.  Maybe I have it wrong, it is just some of my experience over the last 25 years that I tend to be biased towards. Certainly the real fundamental (semantically speaking) is impact where you get into shaft lean and bottom of the arc 4 inches in front of the ball, but if you cannot properly hold the instrument, the former is highly unattainable on any consistent basis. Maybe that is where we are getting hung up, because I am sure there are some exceptions, but every golfer I have seen with some sort of game has had at least a decent grip.

[JetFan1983]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Seriously Jet,

Is there really an ocean of bad instructors out there?  I have been in or around the industry for a while and there are good and bad, but I wouldn't make it sound like a decent instructor is so hard to find. Maybe it is because I live in South Florida, where there is an over abundance of golf industry folks and most of the instruction takes place on grass ranges.

It could be a Florida thing. So far I've made two winter trips to Florida solely for golf. The first time I went I thought Florida was golf heaven, so, it's definitely possible.

Maybe I've just had really, really bad luck with them.

I was just saying that when the golfer's weight and handle are forward, you can have a screwed up alignment, grip, and stance and still hit the ball solidly and in the vicinity of the target. There are so many people who struggle with that.

I guess I have a different perspective than most on this site because I'm probably the least talented player here. So that gives me a different perspective than most maybe? I kind of view everything from the eyes of the total hacker.

[The Recreational Golfer]

1. Whenever I have a lesson, I tell my pro I want to learn how to do This, and at the end of the lesson, I can do This. That, to me, is the sign of a good pro. But then, you have to be a good student, too. Lots of people forget that part.

2. In May this year, he showed me how to release the club through the ball (whatever that means to you). At first, I could only do it with a 9-iron. It took me a week of trying to be able to do it with an 8-iron. I spent the summer working through the bag, club by club, and had a few more lessons along the way just to make sure I wasn't drifting. The payoff is finally coming. I hit the ball straighter more often, and farther, than I used to, and it's so easy. I had hit a plateau and needed to advance. It was hard work, some days on the course I could do no wrong and other days I couldn't even find the ball, but I kept at it and I am a different golfer than I was at the start of the year. Golf is a different game for me now. That's what lessons did for me.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

So the conclusion is that there is no "right" way to swing a golf club. The only part of a golf swing that is 90% similar among all good golfers is impact and how you get to impact is pretty much irrelevant. It's the "moment of truth" as they say.

We both know there are more similarities between the games best players than just impact. Inward hands, weight forward, handle forward, controlled low-point, and axis tilt to name a few.

Sorry, maybe my explanation was a little obscure. All of the above are correct, however the only point in the swing at which they're required is impact. A player can take his hands straight back and then at the top pull them "inward" to loop them back down correctly. A player can shift their weight back onto the rear leg and then shift it back forward. A player's low point only exists at impact and a player's axis tilt again can vary throughout the swing but only needs to be consistent at the point the club meets the ball.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Take a look at various pro swings from Charlie Wi to Rory McIlroy to Jim Furyk to Ernie Els and you'll see they're all completely different

To the untrained eye, yes. To the trained eye they do a ton of the same things.

Sorry, I meant the swings as a whole , not specific parts of the swing.

If we were to take individual parts of a swing then all swings both good and bad would have some type of connection to each other. Someone could be the worst golfer in the world but have a grip like Hogan and a stance like Woods but everything else is wrong. Likewise someone could have a ton of excellent parts to their swing but have a hard time marrying them all together to be consistent.

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

Quote:

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

that demonstrates the above assertion that a swing should be whatever your body and mind find the easiest to perform repeatedly and consistently and that you should be trying to find a teaching pro who can work with what you and your body are capable of, not a single swing that every student must conform to.

To a point yes. Anything that is too complicated to learn and repeat is bad. But going through swing changes takes hard work, and one should be prepared to feel uncomfortable and different. You will have struggles, even though your good swings should now become better quite quickly.

I agree completely that golf swing changes will likely feel alien to begin with but feeling a little weird and being incapable of something are two separate things.

My lower back has an excessive lumbar curve and therefore it's physically impossible for me to "straighten my back" ("feel like a pole runs along your spine and every part of your back touches it at address" was something said to me by my very first teaching pro and even though I explained my medical issue he persisted in telling me to straighten it repeatedly!)

Excluding physical limitations however if you're making changes to a swing and nothing feels different then your changes aren't being made.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

It could be a Florida thing. So far I've made two winter trips to Florida solely for golf. The first time I went I thought Florida was golf heaven, so, it's definitely possible.

Maybe I've just had really, really bad luck with them.

I was just saying that when the golfer's weight and handle are forward, you can have a screwed up alignment, grip, and stance and still hit the ball solidly and in the vicinity of the target. There are so many people who struggle with that.

I guess I have a different perspective than most on this site because I'm probably the least talented player here. So that gives me a different perspective than most maybe? I kind of view everything from the eyes of the total hacker.

Now, there are some charlatans down here too, let's be clear about that, and just not in the golf industry!   Perspective is relative and dynamic as we are all just students of the game.  I just see so many people who struggle that could benefit from a watchful eye without ever having to really change too much in their swing. They set up to the ball in such a way that their whole move becomes a series of compensations for the position they have put themselves in.  The moment of truth is and always will be impact, but that needs to be supported with some basics that can allow for that to happen on a consistent basis. As we all know, that is easier said than done.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by JetFan1983

I was just saying that when the golfer's weight and handle are forward, you can have a screwed up alignment, grip, and stance and still hit the ball solidly and in the vicinity of the target. There are so many people who struggle with that.

I guess I have a different perspective than most on this site because I'm probably the least talented player here. So that gives me a different perspective than most maybe? I kind of view everything from the eyes of the total hacker.

Does it not seem odd that, as you say, you are probably the least talented player here (certainly not the case, BTW) yet you are saying that alignment, grip and stance are relatively unimportant.  Do you not try to have a good grip, good stance and good alignment?

Why would you discount the basic fundamentals of the game?

[DoGolf Jonathan]

I definitely agree.  There is a huge difference between someone who can play golf and someone who can teach golf.  I think for the most part a lot of the pros go through strenuous training and techniques to be able to be a good pro, but for some reason or another, can't put their teachings into action for themselves.  Also, sometimes it is just pure talent.  Take Tiger Woods, Greg Norman, Phil Mickelson, etc, etc... all these guys have pros who most likely don't play golf better than they do, but they are still being coached.  It is because the coach may not have all that it takes.  Just my few cents.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

Does it not seem odd that, as you say, you are probably the least talented player here (certainly not the case, BTW) yet you are saying that alignment, grip and stance are relatively unimportant.  Do you not try to have a good grip, good stance and good alignment?

Why would you discount the basic fundamentals of the game?

A "fundamental" by it's very nature is something that is a basic law or rule which applies across the subject matter and is very specific; something that is essential for the subject.

The Stack & Tilt guys have this right on with their assertion that the true "fundamentals" of the golf swing are and it's not the grip, stance or alignment as that differs quite dramatically across all good players. The proper fundamentals to the golf swing which are uniformed across all professional players are the ability to hit the ground in the same spot consistently, the ability to play the course in the required number of strokes and being able to match the club face to the swing path to control the ball's direction. Those three things are essential to playing golf and thus "fundamental" to every golf swing.

EDIT: I realise that having "a" grip and "a" stance and aiming the swing more or less toward the target are essential too but as the method to employ those can differ so drastically across players I don't think there's a specific single "fundamental" method to them.

[Golfs-for-Fun]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Seriously Jet,

Is there really an ocean of bad instructors out there?  I have been in or around the industry for a while and there are good and bad, but I wouldn't make it sound like a decent instructor is so hard to find. Maybe it is because I live in South Florida, where there is an over abundance of golf industry folks that seem to be pretty decent as a whole.

I think my comments on grip, stance, alignment, etc are pretty fundamental as far as what the average guy could benefit from within 20 minutes in the presence of any decent instructor.  Just the simply concept of alignment can make a difference.  Some guys that play with us infrequently will concede and on the back nine ask for a tip. I try not to do it, but more often than not it is something like, Maybe you should be aligned to general direction to the target.  I hear that they think they are, until you lay the club down and show them their feet are pointed 15 degrees to the right and their shoulders are pointed 20 degrees left while they sit on the heels of their feet with the club shoved up into their palms as they fall off the tee box trying to hit that little white ball that just taunts them by remaining quiet.  Maybe I have it wrong, it is just some of my experience over the last 25 years that I tend to be biased towards. Certainly the real fundamental (semantically speaking) is impact where you get into shaft lean and bottom of the arc 4 inches in front of the ball, but if you cannot properly hold the instrument, the former is highly unattainable on any consistent basis. Maybe that is where we are getting hung up, because I am sure there are some exceptions, but every golfer I have seen with some sort of game has had at least a decent grip.

But isnt it just common sense to lay a club down and make sure youre aimed at the target to begin with ?

I mean, the human mind should be able to grasp that I have to be AIMED at a target in order to HIT that target, I guess I dont see the necessity for a paid instructor to give out that information when there are tons of instructional videos and articles all over the web about that sort of thing.

The funny thing is that so far Ive only had that ONE guy who wasnt an instructor tell me to see one. Everyone else who has suggested it IS an instructor, although I dont find that out until a little later in the conversation.

I was at Dicks 4 days ago or so and was talking to a guy who works the desk there in the golf area. He's never mentioned he was an instructor when Ive been in there buying grips to regrip my clubs....not that he needed to, but there has certainly been opportunity to over the weeks. So this time he digs really deep into my game, and basically followed me around the store there for a bit talking about golf. He tells me I should really get with an instructor EVEN THOUGH Ive never said anything to him about my game as far as falling short. I dont give any specifics and I certainly hadnt mentioned any real problem areas or anything. Matter of fact Ive been pretty clear that given the time served so far Im actually pretty impressed with the progress so far.

Now, hes polite as it gets, but he's clearly pushing this instructor thing, so I start listening to be polite even though I already know Im not interested, but I dont want to make him feel bad or anything.

After the sales pitch and my not shutting down the discussion he then gets around to telling me hes an instructor.

When I did sales for MY printing company I owned years ago I was always up front from the word hello. I didnt try to sell the product THEN tell someone I was the seller.

Not saying this is dishonest, it certainly isnt. But if I were completely oblivious about it  Id have bought into the sales pitch that I 'need' an instructor and low and behold....HERE is an instructor....convenient.

When it happens this way it made me feel like he was more about making a sale and getting a new customer than actually HEARING what Id been saying.

I never pushed my product onto anyone. I let them know up front who I was and if they werent interested I left with a smile. I lose trust in anyone who tries to SELL me something without even knowing if Im interested or in need.

I guess I dont like salesmen to begin with. And hearing a sales pitch about how I need something rather than talking to me first to determine if thats the case is.....annoying.....and certainly doesnt give me any confidence in the person selling the product.

I guess thats why I just prefer keeping golf a hobby and learning with books, videos and watching the pros, as well as reading what the fine folks on forums like this one have to say.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

A "fundamental" by it's very nature is something that is a basic law or rule which applies across the subject matter and is very specific; something that is essential for the subject.

The Stack & Tilt guys have this right on with their assertion that the true "fundamentals" of the golf swing are and it's not the grip, stance or alignment as that differs quite dramatically across all good players. The proper fundamentals to the golf swing which are uniformed across all professional players are the ability to hit the ground in the same spot consistently, the ability to play the course in the required number of strokes and being able to match the club face to the swing path to control the ball's direction. Those three things are essential to playing golf and thus "fundamental" to every golf swing.

I guess I would ask you the same question that I posed to JetFan.  Why are those things relatively unimportant to you?  As you say, it is fundamental to hit the ground in the same spot consistently.  I agree.  But is it easier to do this when the ball is in the relative same spot in your stance, or is it easier to do it if it doesn't really matter from swing to swing where you stand in relation to the ball?  Is it easier to hit toward a target if you are careful to line up to that target, or is it easier if you don't care where you are lined up?

It's certainly possible to play good golf with different grips, different stances, different alignment procedures, if they are consistently and carefully applied from shot to shot.  To discount them by saying they are not fundamental to playing well just doesn't make sense.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

I guess I would ask you the same question that I posed to JetFan.  Why are those things relatively unimportant to you?  As you say, it is fundamental to hit the ground in the same spot consistently.  I agree.  But is it easier to do this when the ball is in the relative same spot in your stance, or is it easier to do it if it doesn't really matter from swing to swing where you stand in relation to the ball?  Is it easier to hit toward a target if you are careful to line up to that target, or is it easier if you don't care where you are lined up?

It's certainly possible to play good golf with different grips, different stances, different alignment procedures, if they are consistently and carefully applied from shot to shot.  To discount them by saying they are not fundamental to playing well just doesn't make sense.

I didn't say they were unimportant, just that they aren't "fundamental" in terms of being exactly the same requirement for every golfer.

I'm definitely not discounting something as important as a suitable stance or grip or alignment for the required shot; I'm just saying that they will differ from shot to shot and golfer to golfer so aren't actually a universal fundamental part of the swing. The ability to strike the ground in the correct spot is a requirement to all golfers and so is being able to match the clubface to the swing path for the desired shot.

[Chief Broom]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

I guess thats why I just prefer keeping golf a hobby and learning with books, videos and watching the pros, as well as reading what the fine folks on forums like this one have to say.

Lessons will help your game.  Can you improve on your own?  Sure, but the point of lessons is to have someone with a trained eye watch what you do and help you to do it better.  Most people have no idea what they are really doing when they swing the club.  iacas loves to say "feel isn't real" and that is a notion I agree with wholeheartedly.

What you as a golfer need to decide on are goals for your game.  Since you golf for fun what is it that you find fun about the game?  Then what you do is codify that and present that to a potential instructor.  How they react to what you want out of a lesson or lessons will help you decide whether or not this is an instructor you should trust with your money and with your game.  A good instructor will take your desired goals and apprise your current game/swing and then help you accomplish those goals.  Another thing iacas likes to say that I also agree with is that a good instructor will have you making improvement within minutes.  Not saying your goals will simply fall into place, but you should see immediate improvement.  An instructor who tells you it'll take time and additional lessons before you see any improvement is an instructor you should avoid.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by Golfs-for-Fun

But isnt it just common sense to lay a club down and make sure youre aimed at the target to begin with ?

I mean, the human mind should be able to grasp that I have to be AIMED at a target in order to HIT that target, I guess I dont see the necessity for a paid instructor to give out that information when there are tons of instructional videos and articles all over the web about that sort of thing.

I would agree except common sense is not common practice, even more so when golf is involved.  Just go to the range and look to see how many people start with their shoulders wide open to their imaginary target line (if they even have a target).  Compare that to the pros who warm up with alignment sticks with their caddy watching.  The biggest difference is that the pros know how easy it is to get slightly out of whack, while the average golfer is oblivious.

[dtb300]

Finding the right instructor for you and your game is a trial and error process.  Each of us learns differently and we need to find an instructor who can teach us in a way we understand so we can attempt to perform the task at hand.  If one feels they are not getting proper teaching from instructor "A", then switch to instructor "B".  Simple.   If instructor "A" gets bent/mad that you changed to "B", then they are not a good instructor.

Now with the internet, lower prices cameras, and video watching software, almost anyone can watch their performance, compare against what they see on TV, YouTube, etc. etc. and then try to change their game to match.   Some may be able to do it this way.  In my experience with sports and coaching, you will progress much faster working with a certified instructor who meshes and blends with you, your personality, and your way to learn.

If you think you can find an instructor, take one lesson, not practice, and expect your scores to get better, then you have the wrong idea about lessons.

Changing a motor skill in sports takes a serious amount of time and effort by both parties to be able to make the change.  As you learn, you will be fighting your unconscious memory/muscle memory, hence you will struggle to perform these new tasks.  And a good instructor will be able to fine tune their instruction to match with your learning abilities.

One of the biggest issues people have when learning is "what you perceive you are doing, and what you REALLY are doing", is usually two different things (perception is not reality).  This is where a good coach will give you proper DRILLS to help you learn your new task quicker.  Look at some of the drills IACAS and other owners of the site do in their videos.  For instance: They do not just tell a student to shift their weight forward in the downswing, they initially use DRILLS to help them get the feel, then progress from there.

[mvmac]

Definition of fundamental of or relating to essential structure, function, or facts Grip and stance are important but not fundamentals of the game, not essential to hitting the ball first. All expert players have the handle forward of the club head at impact, that is a fundamental like Jet Fan described. If grip were fundamentals how could this guy hit the ball? [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTxp_Q3VNRQ[/VIDEO] But he definitely gets the handle forward, hits the ball first, hits it really far and has some predictable curve. Players that have a weak, strong, neutral grip can do those things. If alignment was a fundamental, how does it make sense that Nicklaus and Trevino aimed left, Snead and Palmer aimed right? How about stance? [URL=http://thesandtrap.com/image/id/182752/width/640/height/389][IMG]http://thesandtrap.com/image/id/182752/width/640/height/389[/IMG][/URL] Again not saying that GAP aren't important pieces but there is room for variance. Could have a "perfect" looking grip, stance and alignment and still hit a huge slice.

[Harmonious]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Grip and stance are important but not fundamentals of the game, not essential to hitting the ball first. All expert players have the handle forward of the club head at impact, that is a fundamental like Jet Fan described. If grip were fundamentals how could this guy hit the ball?[if IE]>