Elbow Position and Its Effects on the Downswing

[uttexas]

I've been working on this for a long time. The feeling that has worked best for me: For a righty, feel that the right forearm is vertical at P4 (top of the back swing). When I'm working on this at the range, I imagine the distant target (flag stick). When I swing, I imagine my right forearm getting vertical and parallel with the flag stick. Then, in the transition into the down swing, feel that your right arm skips a flat rock (side arm) across a pond.

Over the past month, I'd struggled again some with the transition. New feelings are working better. Smooth back swing (like Snead) with a fluid big hip turn, then at the top palmar flex with the leading wrist and push down with the leading arm (same direction as palmar flexion) while at the same time squeezing the trailing elbow (right elbow for a righty)in and forward imagining it going in front of the belly button. When I make a nice big fluid centered hip turn the move is easy, when I get "tight" and restrict my hip turn, it's more difficult.

[boogielicious]

Uttexas,

Same exact thing for me.  Plus, when I have a bad shot, I know I either rushed the transition or or one of the other elements was off.  I rarely have two bad in a row now.  It is good to know what causes the issue because we can fix it on the course.

[outlaw1984]

Look here at Hogan he keeps his right elbow on his body almost to impact........any body wanna key on this

[Zeph]

CBS did a comparison of Hogan and Dufner during yesterday's PGA Tour coverage. Focusing on the position of the right elbow. [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRV-b5vvUNY[/VIDEO] [VIDEO]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZfU2yedWT0k[/VIDEO]

[Maverick]

I like that swing..seems so accurate..it seems everything just rests on that right arm..pretty.

[barrycaldwell]

Dufner, does a heck of a job keeping his back arm nice and tight to his body. This is something that I have to really teach my younger students.

Very smooth and consistant swing.

[bunkerputt]

Thanks for the video quiz, Mike.  All this time I've been saying "use your arms on the downswing", but I think I'm really referring more specifically to the right elbow motion.  That's the only way I can personally get to a decently slammed position at impact.

[LovinItAll]

Funny....I join here and the first post I read is the thing I work the hardest on in my own game. After a very long layoff (7 years), the biggest struggle I have right now is battling a too-long backswing. I had worked for YEARS on shortening my swing. Really, it's incredible how difficult it is for me to shorten it up. Keeping my right elbow close to my body does the trick, of course, but for me, it's easier said than done. Not sure the OP really meant it this way when he posted, 'steep backswing, shallow through transition', but here are a couple of thoughts that help me: - When I feel my right elbow starting to 'fly', especially with full shots with longer clubs, I make a move that feels like I'm slamming my elbow back into my right side. This results in the feeling that the arc shallows...laid off feeling, really....but my ball contact improves dramatically. It feels like Fowler's swing looks, but I doubt that's real, if all of that makes sense. - I was watching Gulbis working with Harmon on shortening her swing. She was taking it back about 3/4ths with her elbow tucked, stopping, then completing her turn and hitting shots. This works well for me, too. If one's right elbow is relatively close to the right side, it's very hard to over swing. I don't know why I have such a hard time trusting all of the above during a round, especially since I conquered this issue before, but it is what it is. I started playing again four months ago. It took me two long months to post a score in the 70's, and the right elbow position was the primary reason why. I played to a 2-3 for three years, with intermittent indices at scratch or better. For me, right elbow position is the holy grail. YMMV.... Regards ~ LovinItAll

[mbrodeur86]

Your post has helped me greatly with my driver. I'm not hitting it longer and straighter than I ever have!! If you could help me with my fairway woods as well as you've helped me with my driver it would be forever appreciated!!!

[boogielicious]

Quote:

1. Obviously, fixing your backswing is going to help. Though it was terrible advice for Ray Romano, Hank Haney made a big deal out of "loop it the other way." Think of Tiger Woods - steep backswing, shallow the club through the transition. Rickie Fowler, too. If you're coming in from under the plane and the club tips out, good luck - sometimes fixing the backswing will allow you to make a better downswing. Jim Furyk swing (I've previously employed this feeling too ).
2. Try to get your right elbow to your belly button in transition. You won't get anywhere close, but get it as close as you can.

Erik,

I was working on this Saturday and Sunday.  This seems to be one of my issues.  It worked great on Sunday with my Driver and woods.  I was a bit inspired by Jim Furyk.  I used that looping feeling and elbow to the bellybutton as swing thoughts.  Ball flight was straighter and seemed more controllable.

My question is about angle of attack and low point.  The change seems to have shallowed my angle of attack with the irons.  Divots are not as deep and the low point seems to have moved forward.  Would this be the result of the better elbow position?  I am making good contact with the irons, but the ball flight is lower unless I move the ball forward a bit.  It seems to have affected full wedge shots the most.

Thanks.

[iacas]

Erik, I was working on this Saturday and Sunday.  This seems to be one of my issues.  It worked great on Sunday with my Driver and woods.  I was a bit inspired by Jim Furyk.  I used that looping feeling and elbow to the bellybutton as swing thoughts.  Ball flight was straighter and seemed more controllable.   My question is about angle of attack and low point.  The change seems to have shallowed my angle of attack with the irons.  Divots are not as deep and the low point seems to have moved forward.  Would this be the result of the better elbow position?  I am making good contact with the irons, but the ball flight is lower unless I move the ball forward a bit.  It seems to have affected full wedge shots the most.

More pitch elbow can move low point forward with a shallower angle of attack, yes. You bet. To be clear, Jim Furyk is nowhere near the model for pitch elbow [i]on the downswing[/i]. The "Furyk Feeling" is specifically related to "steeper shaft on the backswing, flatter shaft on the downswing." It's done WITH pitch elbow, not whatever Furyk does on the downswing (it may be push, it's awfully far back for even punch elbow).

[boogielicious]

I understand.  It is more of the feeling and not what it actually looks like.  I haven't filmed it yet, but I bet it just looks like I am on one plane and finally coming from the inside.  My previous swing felt correct, but I was definitely coming over plane on the downswing on film.  This is what I was trying to correct.

[apgolf]

Get the back-swing correct and the downswing will take care of it self. Thinking about manipulating the downswing with your hands or arms will not lead to good, consistent striking. The correct movement of the hands up and arms laterally will get you into the slot and if you get into the slot, it is all over...the ball is going to the target.

Had it to 5 under through 16 the other day (three putted 18) with some of the best long-iron play of my career. The insight I had was of the right hand up the top felt like it was a little laid off and the shaft floating up the top (as Erik said left wrist watch facing up). Also felt like my tempo was pure; legs following the arms turning the body on back-swing then starting the back-swing with torso then arms lagging coming down (note this are or feelings I had; I'm not doing this consciously .

This felt fantastic but I got to this position by getting less wide on the back-swing , (felt like I was trying to put my right hand on my right shoulder) this gets me cocking earlier and fully with hands on back-swing. Geoff Ogilvy is a good one to watch for excellent wrist hinging and soft arms - not to wide. To get this correct I have been working on making just one-arm swings with the left arm (not hitting the ball). This action is perfect, the hands and arms work perfectly, try and mimic these positions (for me it is not pushing my arms to far away; I must follow the width and the precise hinging as the one arm swing).

[apgolf]

Originally Posted by outlaw1984

Look here at Hogan he keeps his right elbow on his body almost to impact........any body wanna key on this

Perfection

[apgolf]

Great videos but Peter Kostis say they are wide then narrow? Very poor analysis. Their width on the back-swing is correct - not wide. Getting too wide would be extending left arm too far and this causes all sorts of problems (poor hinging of wrists, head and center moving off ball too much). Their heads do not move of the ball much if any - meaning they are not getting too wide, wrists are hinging and not over extending.

[Hogan1949]

Originally Posted by iacas

More pitch elbow can move low point forward with a shallower angle of attack, yes. You bet.

To be clear, Jim Furyk is nowhere near the model for pitch elbow on the downswing. The "Furyk Feeling" is specifically related to "steeper shaft on the backswing, flatter shaft on the downswing." It's done WITH pitch elbow, not whatever Furyk does on the downswing (it may be push, it's awfully far back for even punch elbow).

iacas,

Don't the DS thoughts of "keeping the left shoulder low" and "pitch elbow" (which would seem to increase axis tilt) seem contradictory?

Thanks

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Hogan1949

Don't the DS thoughts of "keeping the left shoulder low" and "pitch elbow" (which would seem to increase axis tilt) seem contradictory?

When did I say "keeping the left shoulder low"? The words "left shoulder" don't even appear in this thread until your post (and now mine), and a search for "shoulder" never shows any posts by me which talk about the lead or left shoulder.

The trail elbow location is largely independent of the location of the lead shoulder. You can pause your downswing at A5 or so and move your elbow to extreme push or even extreme pitch elbow while keeping the location of the lead shoulder constant.

[Hogan1949]

Originally Posted by iacas

When did I say "keeping the left shoulder low"? The words "left shoulder" don't even appear in this thread until your post (and now mine), and a search for "shoulder" never shows any posts by me which talk about the lead or left shoulder.

The trail elbow location is largely independent of the location of the lead shoulder. You can pause your downswing at A5 or so and move your elbow to extreme push or even extreme pitch elbow while keeping the location of the lead shoulder constant.

I thought I saw it in another thread re: S&T; principles and it may not even been you that said it. I'll see if I can find something because I found it very confusing.