How well does your local course follow the hole location guidelines?

[B-Con]

I just saw that the USGA has an [url=http://www.usga.org/RulesFAQ/rules_answer.asp?FAQidx=143&Rule;=16]official set of guidelines[/url] for determining hole placement. (The R&A; [url=http://www.randa.org/en/Rules-and-Amateur-Status/Guidance-on-Running-a-Competition.aspx?chapter=4§ion;=2]has a similar one[/url].) My local courses seem to violate these two: [quote]2) There must be enough putting green surface between the hole and the front and the sides of the green to accommodate the required shot. For example, if the hole requires a long iron or wood shot to the green, the hole should be located deeper in the green and further from its sides than should be the case if the hole requires a short pitch shot. [b]In any case, it is recommended that generally the hole be located at least four paces from any edge of the green.[/b] If a bunker is close to the edge, or if the ground slopes away from the edge, the distance should be greater, especially if the shot is more than a pitch. Consideration should be given to fair opportunity for recovery after a reasonably good shot that just misses the green. [/quote] (Emphasis mine.) They give ample room for the approach shots, but the emphasized part is the issue. "Four paces" suggests, to me, about 11 or 12 feet. Both courses generally have greens that slope up from front to back, and when they stick the pin locations on the back of the green, I sometimes find myself chipping on from the back of the green. But sometimes they stick the pins right up against the back, so I find myself chipping on from the side or back of the green to a pin that's barely 6 feet from the edge. It's annoying need to carry a chip about 6 feet and then have it stop in about 6 feet. Then you either do some sort of crappy putt that you hope gets onto the green, you just shrug and chip past the hole, or you do some sort of opened-up soft pitch that has the potential to go very wrong. [quote]3) An area two to three feet in radius around the hole should be as nearly level as possible and of uniform grade. In no case should holes be located in tricky places, or on sharp slopes where a ball can gather speed. A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole. [/quote] My most local course has one hole with two tiers and a frequently hole location is about 1/3 of the way up that tier. If you're 10 feet above the hole, I don't know if it's humanly possible to stop the ball within 2 feet of the hole. My other local course has two holes with that same issue; last time I played it both holes were in the middle of that sharp tier break, and both times I was above the hole. It was just plain kind of annoying knowing that you basically tap the ball and pray it would be able to go more than 2 but less than 6 feet. How do your courses hold up to the guidelines?

[Grumpter]

I haven't seen much of the too close to the edge of the green but have seen the 'tricky' placement often enough. I have played holes where hitting the ball just past the cup, but missing the cup, would roll back to where you putted from. Yesterday I was left with a 20 ft slightly uphill putt where 2 feet before the cup the green started to moderately slope downhill. If I would have putted 1.5 ft past the cup I probably would have a 30 footer coming back.

I can stomach too close to the edge more so than the 'tricky' placements. If a course consistently uses tricky placements I just stop going to that course.

[Fourputt]

My home course does just fine during the season, almost never putting a hole closer than 12 feet from the edge.

In winter that policy changes for the preservation of the course.   They cut 3 holes on each green, then cap 2 of them and only one is active. They change the flagstick to a different hole every 2 or 3 days.  These winter holes are usually quite close to the edges of the green, some only about 6 feet in.  They do that to minimize the traffic on the larger part of the putting surface.  This keeps the greens in surprisingly good shape all winter long, and they come back strong the next spring, without having to use temp greens.

[B-Con]

I haven't seen much of the too close to the edge of the green but have seen the 'tricky' placement often enough. I have played holes where hitting the ball just past the cup, but missing the cup, would roll back to where you putted from. Yesterday I was left with a 20 ft slightly uphill putt where 2 feet before the cup the green started to moderately slope downhill. If I would have putted 1.5 ft past the cup I probably would have a 30 footer coming back. I can stomach too close to the edge more so than the 'tricky' placements. If a course consistently uses tricky placements I just stop going to that course.

I agree: I hate tricky pin locations more than other things. As bad as having hard downhill putts is, I think I hate it more when you have a side angle and have to aim 3 feet above the hole for a 4 foot putt.

[clubchamp]

During the season the course I play at has 4 to 6 pin positions per green granted 2 of them aren't used as much as the other 4. In the off season the have basically have 3 different placements and obviously they don't change the pins as much. I never payed much attention if they followed the guidelines of the USGA but I haven't noticed any that I thought were weird or unfair so I'm guessing it's ok.

[awmgolfer]

The guy that does pin placements at our course usually does a good job. However, our number 12 hole is a par 5, the tee is quite elevated and you hit down to the first fairway. At the end of the first fairway it turns into rough and goes downhill pretty sharply and then starts back uphill where the second fairway begins and keeps going up hill for about 160 yards to the green. The green is fairly sloped back to front but in the middle of the green it is still tricky but not as bad to stop the ball. There is a spot in the upper right hand part of the green that is sloped really bad and the pin is never there. However, he decided to place it there about half way through the season, it was impossible to get the ball to stop. I was 15 yards off the green, chipped on over a bunker and hit a great shot, it ran about a foot past the cup and then rolled 30 feet backwards and off the green. I then putted back up and came up about a foot short and it did the same thing. My next putt luckily caught a ball mark close to the cup and stopped and made the putt. I'm a decent putter, usually 2 or 1 putt, could count on one hand how many 3 putts I had all season aside from this hole during this stretch. I was routinely 4-6 putting. The guy got some heat from the club pro and course owner and his answer to them was if people can't handle it, don't play and his other one was, geeze, people can't take a joke. I don't mind a tough placement but ridiculous and something that is fair but tough are two different things and he just didn't get it. That's an easy way to get a beginner to really no enjoy the game.

[GJBenn85]

The courses I play generally do a good job but there are several holes where the pin placement creates problems.  I don't complain since these holes are rated among the most difficult.  I am suspect of the rule about a 2-3' flat surface radius around the hole though; the sixth at the course I play most often slopes fairly dramatically toward the marsh behind it.  When the pin placement is in the back, I do not think there is a level spot to be found.

[B-Con]

The courses I play generally do a good job but there are several holes where the pin placement creates problems.  I don't complain since these holes are rated among the most difficult.  I am suspect of the rule about a 2-3' flat surface radius around the hole though; the sixth at the course I play most often slopes fairly dramatically toward the marsh behind it.  When the pin placement is in the back, I do not think there is a level spot to be found.

Well, I don't think it means "perfectly flat". Here's the motivation behind "flat": [quote]A player above the hole should be able to stop the ball at the hole.[/quote] As long as the ball has reasonable ability to come to a stop, I don't complain. But if it's like your example from your previous post, it sounds like actually getting the ball to stop near the hole, coming from a certain angle, practically requires a violation of physics. I think the goal is that the entire putting green should be an isolated region where the previous stroke that got you there doesn't prevent you from executing a good next shot.

[Wansteadimp]

I recently played an Essex county final at a course where they had shoved the pin in the middle of a ridiculous slope. I three putted including a 6 footer that ran off the green.

The guy I was playing 5 putted, including a 4 footer down hill that ran off the green (his first) and a 4 footer up hill (his third) that lipped out and ran off the green.

You know they've got it wrong when you've won a hole (my 8 to his 9) and you think "Thats B*ll*cks"

[Spyder]

Forward these rules to my local. There's 2 Par 4s that play around 420 from the tee. The green has a bunker that is directly in front of it with literally 4 inches of rough before the green starts. They often tuck the pin about 2 feet from the left and 2 feet from the front in the front-facing, left-hand corner of the green. This makes an almost impossible pitch shot (when the pin is there) from any distance out. Players will usually either play the back or right of the green to set up a lengthy putt in excess of 30 feet. Birdies are far and few between on these holes.

[RayG]

So I presume that many holes at Augusta are in violation of these placement rules...

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by RayG

So I presume that many holes at Augusta are in violation of these placement rules...

Nope.  The greens are so fast that you have to have precise speed control when putting downhill, and you often can't leave the ball more than 4 feet short or it will come back to you.  That said, the holes are always cut where they can be accessed with the proper shot, and never closer than around 4 feet to any of those drastic slopes.  The thing about Augusta National is that each green only has 3 or 4 possible general hole locations.  It only takes a slight miss to leave a 60 foot putt.

[WUTiger]

The shorter courses in the area are the worst offenders.

A cup cut a foot past the top edge of the terraced green.... A cup on top of a little knob that falls off in all directions... A cup cut 6 " from the downslope of a green's false front.

One nine-hole layout has at least two hole locations per round which are brutal. it's like the greens crew thinks the designer made the hole too easy.