A Centered Pivot Golf Swing

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by darrylc

Mike,

Nice video, sir.  Let's pretend I was going to practice turning my left shoulder down to the correct position.  If I setup a gadget that held the end of a stick at the correct destination spot (or had someone hold it there), where exactly would that be?  It appears the height would be about where the bottom button of a polo shirt would be.  How about distance out from the chest?

Thanks - Darryl

Mid Sternum is a good measurement, not sure how far to have it away from your chest, here's an idea

[cameronprine]

A centered pivot is a very efficient way to swing the golf club. My dad who is a PGA Teaching Pro disagrees as he is still in favor of a 1980's swing (weight and body back, reverse C finish while hitting a draw). I think it is good because it helps eliminate any fat and thin shots and I dont feel as if my hands need to catch up to my body in a sense. My trajectory has lowered a bit and my starting lines have tightened up a bit. Its very nice being able to shoot a score around par even on a day when I am not "feeling" my swing.

[i-Guy]

Wow!  This is an excellent thread as I have been struggling with my S&T; move...I have bounced around with swing methodologies this year (sometime even changing during a round ) but I am currently trying to stick to the S&T; and for one main reason... I hit the ball where I am aimed (straight as an arrow), however, the thing that has been frustrating me is the lack of power.  I know where it is going but I am at least a club shorter then I was a year and 1/2 ago when I first tried the S&T.;  I know it is difficult to tell what is wrong without a video, but if I am hitting the ball really straight and making good contact (ball first, good divot) then where could I be losing power???  Thanks for any help you can provide.

[cameronprine]

Your angles might be out of proportion, make sure you are not getting too steep or that you are not sliding your whole body forward. These both lead to the club not coming in at an angle that can compress the ball sufficiently. I am about a club and a half longer since beginning a modified version of S&T; about a year ago. You have to do what works for your body

[iacas]

We've yet to have a student who implements what we teach lose power. Most gain, though a few have held steady on shots they hit cleanly (they just might increase how frequently they hit the ball cleanly).

Regardless of the swing you're trying to build for yourself, I really, really recommend supervision. That could be a camera if you want to do stuff on your own, but feel isn't real and you can't implement single changes let alone an entire swing without some sort of supervision (again, even if it's self-supervision with a camera, which is really "super vision" if you get the double meaning :D).

[Ernest Jones]

This thread, along with The Biggest Secret thread have transformed my game completely. I almost always hit ball first and when I do that, good things happen .

[Uncle Lau]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Wanted to put this together to explain an important aspect of what a centered pivot looks like and the movements that are involved.

Thanks for sharing !!!!

[saevel25]

I have to agree, having a pro to help you is key. Try not to find someone who spouts the classic teaching dogma, but find someone who wants to figure out what works for you to get you into good positions in the back swing. Now i got lucky this past year to fix something in my swing. It was weird, i don't know if i was trying for it, but i decided to hit a 3/4 shot, but i decided to stop my rotation a bit earlier than normal. I stripped that shot at full distance, oops, but i found out that i had a major issue with rotating so much that i was pulling myself to the right in my backswing. Now you can get lucky and figure out certain feel by yourself. The pro i went to was shocked in the improvement i made. But it took me over 3 years to figure out how to stop myself from overswinging (overrotating) in my swing. I thought it was just my club that was going way to far past parallel, but it was actually me rotating so much my club would go past parallel. When you can see the club in your left eye, thats a bit of an overswing. But other things in the swing, the pro has helped me a ton working on getting to were i want to head.

[Shaggie13]

Originally Posted by saevel25

I have to agree, having a pro to help you is key. Try not to find someone who spouts the classic teaching dogma, but find someone who wants to figure out what works for you to get you into good positions in the back swing. Now i got lucky this past year to fix something in my swing. It was weird, i don't know if i was trying for it, but i decided to hit a 3/4 shot, but i decided to stop my rotation a bit earlier than normal. I stripped that shot at full distance, oops, but i found out that i had a major issue with rotating so much that i was pulling myself to the right in my backswing. Now you can get lucky and figure out certain feel by yourself. The pro i went to was shocked in the improvement i made. But it took me over 3 years to figure out how to stop myself from overswinging (overrotating) in my swing. I thought it was just my club that was going way to far past parallel, but it was actually me rotating so much my club would go past parallel. When you can see the club in your left eye, thats a bit of an overswing. But other things in the swing, the pro has helped me a ton working on getting to were i want to head.

Found out I was doing the same thing a couple of weeks ago.  A lot of weak toe contact, weak hooks, low pull hooks, and big blocks.  After that bad round, went home and did some swings looking in the mirror and noticed I was focusing on turning my shoulders and this was making me do the same thing you were doing.  Over rotating, not keeping my head steady.  Now I've been focusing on keeping my head really steady on the back swing, left shoulder goes down, right goes up, and right side feels like it is just stretching up to the sky.  World of difference in my contact and shots.  Solid contact, and now I am doing better with my longer clubs.  I'm 6'5", and notice if I make little mistakes like this, it totally screws up everything.

[deronsizemore]

I have, what's probably a dumb question, but here goes: Why is the low point in the swing at the left shoulder? If it's a centered pivot, and the upper center is the middle of the chest, why is the low point not the centered of the chest? Is it because of the hands being forward and maintaining of the wedges that moves the low point to the left shoulder?

[mchepp]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

I have, what's probably a dumb question, but here goes: Why is the low point in the swing at the left shoulder? If it's a centered pivot, and the upper center is the middle of the chest, why is the low point not the centered of the chest? Is it because of the hands being forward and maintaining of the wedges that moves the low point to the left shoulder?

The low point is not at the left shoulder, the low point is on the ground past the ball. Do you mean why is the low point when the left arm is straight?

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by mchepp

The low point is not at the left shoulder, the low point is on the ground past the ball. Do you mean why is the low point when the left arm is straight?

Sorry for the confusion. The video just describes low point, where the club bottoms out being even with the left shoulder. So, was looking for further clarification there. I know this happens when the weight is forward and the handle is forward, but your upper body isn't supposed to also go forward so seems like the low point would still be middle of the shoulders? Just trying to wrap my head around it.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

I have, what's probably a dumb question, but here goes: Why is the low point in the swing at the left shoulder? If it's a centered pivot, and the upper center is the middle of the chest, why is the low point not the centered of the chest? Is it because of the hands being forward and maintaining of the wedges that moves the low point to the left shoulder?

Not a dumb question at all, we're all here to learn.

Left shoulder is low point because that is where the club will bottom out for good players, reach it's lowest point on the arc.  As the pic below illustrates we want to hit the ball before low point, except with a driver.  If the middle of the chest was low point, that would mean the club would reach it's lowest point before the ball, assuming your playing the ball off your left ear.  Can the middle of the chest be low point?  Yes thats why I said low point for good players, poorer players hit fat, thin, topped shots because low point is much further back, due to the weight being too far back, the upper center tipping back or just releasing the wrist angle too fast too soon.

The middle of the chest, center of rotation, upper axis, is a reference point for keeping the upper body stable, not moving it back and forth or up and down very much.  By stable I don't mean not turning, we turn about 90*.  In the 5 Simple Keys, this would be Key#1 Steady head, easier reference point for most to see a centered pivot than a dot on the sternum.

Notice where Dana draws the lines for the face on view.

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Not a dumb question at all, we're all here to learn.

Left shoulder is low point because that is where the club will bottom out for good players, reach it's lowest point on the arc.  As the pic below illustrates we want to hit the ball before low point, except with a driver.  If the middle of the chest was low point, that would mean the club would reach it's lowest point before the ball, assuming your playing the ball off your left ear.  Can the middle of the chest be low point?  Yes thats why I said low point for good players, poorer players hit fat, thin, topped shots because low point is much further back, due to the weight being too far back, the upper center tipping back or just releasing the wrist angle too fast too soon.

The middle of the chest, center of rotation, upper axis, is a reference point for keeping the upper body stable, not moving it back and forth or up and down very much.  By stable I don't mean not turning, we turn about 90*.  In the 5 Simple Keys, this would be Key#1 Steady head, easier reference point for most to see a centered pivot than a dot on the sternum.

Notice where Dana draws the lines for the face on view.

Thanks, Mike. That makes sense.

Question: Club bottoms out at the left shoulder for good players. So, does that mean we should be playing driver off of our left toe so we are more likely to hit it on the upswing? Or is driver different in that we can still just play it off of our left heel (where most say it should be played)?

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by deronsizemore

Question: Club bottoms out at the left shoulder for good players. So, does that mean we should be playing driver off of our left toe so we are more likely to hit it on the upswing? Or is driver different in that we can still just play it off of our left heel (where most say it should be played)?

We (Golf Evolution) like to see a positive AoA for the driver, so yes, hitting on the upswing a couple degrees.  Good thread to check out on that http://thesandtrap.com/t/44307/hitting-up-or-down-with-the-driver-in-an-inline-pattern

[deronsizemore]

Originally Posted by mvmac

We (Golf Evolution) like to see a positive AoA for the driver, so yes, hitting on the upswing a couple degrees.  Good thread to check out on that http://thesandtrap.com/t/44307/hitting-up-or-down-with-the-driver-in-an-inline-pattern

Thanks, Mike. Makes sense!

[mmoan2]

This thread helped me a lot. I see an improvement already. I play on Monday (MLK day). Let's see how it really works.

Question - You say the shoulder should always be going down and never back up. I really have a hard time making it go down when I get toward the end of the backswing. Is it fair to say that, based on my flexibility, when I get to a point where I can no longer comfortably move my shoulder down without really working hard at it, this is probably where my backswing should end? For me that would be well before what I'm used to, but I also feel like I have an "overswinging" problem.

Thanks,

[iacas]

Originally Posted by mmoan2

This thread helped me a lot. I see an improvement already. I play on Monday (MLK day). Let's see how it really works.

Question - You say the shoulder should always be going down and never back up. I really have a hard time making it go down when I get toward the end of the backswing. Is it fair to say that, based on my flexibility, when I get to a point where I can no longer comfortably move my shoulder down without really working hard at it, this is probably where my backswing should end? For me that would be well before what I'm used to, but I also feel like I have an "overswinging" problem.

Technically if you swing past 90° it will begin going back up. And from 80-90°, it's pretty flat. The shoulders turn on a circle, but the circle is inlined.