Smart Phone GPS Now Not Allowed?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Clambake

Actually, there is an iPhone app called Wind Speed that does just that:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/wind-speed-measure-winds-up/id308137007?mt=8

That doesn't change the fact that the microphone doesn't "measure" the wind speed. And c'mon:

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clambake

Actually, there is an iPhone app called Wind Speed that does just that:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/wind-speed-measure-winds-up/id308137007?mt=8

That doesn't change the fact that the microphone doesn't "measure" the wind speed. And c'mon:

You're saying that would be legal? How is it *not* measuring wind speed? I'm not saying it could do it accurately, but it's certainly measuring.

And speaking of accuracy, that app would be a more accurate measure of local conditions than a report from a station miles away. "C'mon", indeed...

[iacas]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

You're saying that would be legal?

No.

[x129]

In your world does anything measure wind speed? Pretty much every device I know measures something else (motion, pressure, temperature change, and yes sound) and uses physically laws to deduce the speed of the wind. Even the laser ones track particles in the wind not the wind itself. That being said I really question the accuracy of this device.

Originally Posted by iacas

That doesn't change the fact that the microphone doesn't "measure" the wind speed. And c'mon:

[jwrussell]

Love the picture though.  LOL.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Clambake

Actually, there is an iPhone app called Wind Speed that does just that:

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/wind-speed-measure-winds-up/id308137007?mt=8

Well as a thermometer can be built in without an 'app', when someone manages to build in a facility to determine the actual wind direction, then the question about 'weather apps' would seem to be redundant.

But as grass thrown in the air does that now, I suppose it is already redundant.

[Rulesman]

Further to my earlier post re the EGU making a Local Rule forbidding all smartphones from being used as a DMD (regardless of other apps). This has now been withdrawn.

As a result of my mentioning it to the R&A;, the R&A; has ruled that such a Local Rule is not permitted if the authorized LR regarding DMDs in general is in force. I am told the USGA take the same view.

[Clambake]

Originally Posted by iacas

That doesn't change the fact that the microphone doesn't "measure" the wind speed. And c'mon:

Not all anemometers are the usual "cup" version that people are commonly familiar with.    Doppler, hot wire, and sonic anemometers are commonly used in all sorts of applications, and sonic models are quite popular as they don't require any moving parts, can be very compact and are also very accurate for scientific applications.   My boat even uses a sonic anemometer to provide both wind speed and wind direction by using 3 different acoustic sensors; the whole unit looks like a small tomato can mounted on the radar arch.

I can't attest to this iPhone apps accuracy or the appropriateness of their marketing pictures, but don't dismiss the technology.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by iacas

Good catch (and good point).

Which is why all this talk about whether weather (haha) info is helpful or not is completely besides the point.  No matter how helpful weather information is, having a weather app on your phone that you do not use is NOT helpful.  And it is having the app on your phone that makes the device non-conforming, not referencing prohibited weather information.

And as to the argument that allowing the weather app on the phone makes it easy to cheat without being observed I again point out that it is even easier to cheat unobserved by intentionally missing putts to artificially increase a handicap.  This is just as much cheating as getting prohibited information and it is impossible, not just hard, to detect by observation.  So I don't see the problem with the USGA/R&A; saying that accessing the weather information is prohibited but having the app on the phone does not make it a nonconforming device.  You aren't asking anything more stringent from golfers than when you say that they must not intentionally make bad shots.

To do otherwise is to invite serious golfers to ignore the rule and that is bad for golf.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by turtleback

And it is having the app on your phone that makes the device non-conforming, not referencing prohibited weather information.

So I don't see the problem with the USGA/R&A; saying that accessing the weather information is prohibited but having the app on the phone does not make it a nonconforming device.

I think you may have misunderstood the situation re the R&A; and USGA.

The R&A; says that a weather app is not non-conforming but iacas tells us the USGA says a weather app is non-conforming.

The result is that a smartphone with a weather app can not be used as a DMD in the USA & Mexico but it can in the rest of the world.

I have spoken to senior people at the R&A; and they are aware of the situation. I believe discussions are imminent.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by turtleback

And as to the argument that allowing the weather app on the phone makes it easy to cheat without being observed I again point out that it is even easier to cheat unobserved by intentionally missing putts to artificially increase a handicap.

That's handicap cheating, and there are rules specifically built to deal with that, including exceptional tournament score charts, etc. Additionally, sandbagging is nowhere near as prevalent as you wish it to be. It only applies to handicapped competitions (where, seriously, a hell of a lot more rules are broken than sandbagging), and nobody's going to intentionally miss a putt in a tournament because that's not cheating, that's just losing.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by iacas

That's handicap cheating, and there are rules specifically built to deal with that, including exceptional tournament score charts, etc. Additionally, sandbagging is nowhere near as prevalent as you wish it to be. It only applies to handicapped competitions (where, seriously, a hell of a lot more rules are broken than sandbagging), and nobody's going to intentionally miss a putt in a tournament because that's not cheating, that's just losing.

I don't see where I said it was prevalent, I said it was undetectable.  And the sandbagging occurs in non-tournament rounds in the US* since non-tournament rounds are (in large measure) what the handicap is based on.  The "benefit" of sandbagging is realized in handicap competitions, which may or may not be tournaments - lots of matches in non-tourney play use handicaps - but the sandbagging itself can occur in any round that is submitted for handicap purposes.  And for people that play handicap matches but not tournaments there isn't much beyond a vigilant handicap committee to police things.  But I think we can agree that wherever it occurs it is cheating and it is undetectable.  Much more so than the difficulty in determining if someone is improperly using information from a weather app.  If, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, I can be trusted to not miss shots on purpose I think it is not unreasonable, in the absence of evidence to the contrary, to trust me not to improperly use information from a weather app.

And if prevalence is somehow going to be a consideration I would argue that it is even less prevalent for someone to use a weather app to cheat while using a smartphone as a DMD.  I've never seen it happen.  The lack of prevalence that you (rightly, IMO) claim in handicap cheating shows that by and large serious golfers can be trusted to not cheat when cheating is undetectable.  So they can also be trusted to not cheat by looking at weather data when that is only slightly detectable.

* I'm not sure but I think it is different in the UK, where only rounds in tournaments count for handicap purposes in the first  place.

[newtogolf]

I hope the posters here who are upset with the rule and debating it's validity are members of the USGA and voicing their concerns with the them.  I doubt winning the debate here will do much to change the rule.  The rule (right or wrong) seems clear in that SmartPhones with weather apps and compass cannot be used as a GPS DMD during a handicap or tournament round.  Leupold's argued for two years that the GX-4 with the tournament face plate doesn't allow slope measurement and therefore should be approved for use during tournament play and to date it's still not.

[camper6]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I hope the posters here who are upset with the rule and debating it's validity are members of the USGA and voicing their concerns with the them.  I doubt winning the debate here will do much to change the rule.  The rule (right or wrong) seems clear in that SmartPhones with weather apps and compass cannot be used as a GPS DMD during a handicap or tournament round.  Leupold's argued for two years that the GX-4 with the tournament face plate doesn't allow slope measurement and therefore should be approved for use during tournament play and to date it's still not.

Aha but can you clarify please.

Can you have the SmartPhone with you at all in your bag or elsewhere on your person.

In other words is it legal to have a device that is not being used with you if it is non conforming?

I am having a tough time putting this into words.

For instance if you carry a wind vane in your bag and are not using it can you be disqualified for just having it there?

Is it the same story for a Smart Phone?

[Rulesman]

You may carry an 'illegal device' such as a compass but you must not use it.

You may carry and use a smartphone with non-conforming features or apps but you may not use it as a DMD (nor use any of the illegal apps of course).

You may however use it as a phone (providing phones are permitted on that course).

[Stretch]

My local governing body (Western Province Golf Union) actually just sent out a notice to clubs about this. It reads:

Quote:

The following local rule will apply in all WPGU tournaments and leagues from 1 February 2012:

A player may obtain distance information by using a device that measures distance only. If, during a stipulated round, a player uses a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that affect play (gradient, wind speed, temperature etc.), the player will be in breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification, regardless of whether any such additional function is actually used.

Pretty clear cut, although I think the "designed to" wording is weak. (Is my iPhone "designed to" measure gradient, wind speed, temperature etc? No it is not. It is however "capable of" performing these functions through software extensions of its basic operating system, and this would probably have been a better choice of terminology.) Anyway, the rule certainly applies as written to rangefinders with a slope function lockout, so I'm glad I never bought one of those!

[Ignorant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stretch

My local governing body (Western Province Golf Union) actually just sent out a notice to clubs about this. It reads:

Quote:

The following local rule will apply in all WPGU tournaments and leagues from 1 February 2012:

A player may obtain distance information by using a device that measures distance only. If, during a stipulated round, a player uses a distance-measuring device that is designed to gauge or measure other conditions that affect play (gradient, wind speed, temperature etc.), the player will be in breach of Rule 14-3, for which the penalty is disqualification, regardless of whether any such additional function is actually used.

Pretty clear cut, although I think the "designed to" wording is weak. (Is my iPhone "designed to" measure gradient, wind speed, temperature etc? No it is not. It is however "capable of" performing these functions through software extensions of its basic operating system, and this would probably have been a better choice of terminology.) Anyway, the rule certainly applies as written to rangefinders with a slope function lockout, so I'm glad I never bought one of those!

This Local Rule says nothing more than repeats Appendix IV 5 in slightly different words. There has been no doubt whatsoever if DMD's with non-conforming features are allowed to be used. The real question (and the entire debate) is about whether smartphones with non-conforming apps and without DMD is allowed to be used, and if so, which features are allowed.

[Stretch]

I can't tell whether I agree or disagree with you because frankly I don't understand you. You think the issue is whether or not smart phones that don't measure yardages are OK on the course?

Quote:

The real question (and the entire debate) is about whether smartphones with non-conforming apps and without DMD is allowed to be used, and if so, which features are allowed.