Myth of Maintaining Your Address Flex in the Rear Knee

[mvmac]

My response to @natureboy

 

[acerimusdux]

On 2/20/2017 at 10:38 PM, natureboy said:

With the ankle relatively fixed in place and a point of rotation (if you load rightward anyway), the thigh is essentially the radius of the circle. Think about it. The closer to horizontal the trail thigh is, the larger the effective radius around the trail ankle. It's very basic geometry.

And the ankle is on the circumference of that circle, or really even a little outside of it, not within it. So why would you be making a radius around the ankle?

 

On 2/20/2017 at 10:38 PM, natureboy said:

Trail leg extension may help you make a 'better' turn or a better swing, but not due to more degrees of hip rotation around the relatively fixed point of the ankle..

Again, you shouldn't rotate around the ankle, you should rotate away from it. So even if you rotated parallel to the ground, then the basic geometry says the distance between the ankle and hip must still increase.

To keep that distance the same would just about require rotating on an incline that is tilted in the wrong direction.

It's just hard to imagine what the swing you are describing looks like. Sway so bad you really do end up centered over the trail ankle, followed by a massive reverse pivot? 

 

 

 

[JonMA1]

On 2/27/2017 at 10:49 AM, acerimusdux said:

It's just hard to imagine what the swing you are describing looks like. Sway so bad you really do end up centered over the trail ankle, followed by a massive reverse pivot? 

Give me a second to post my swing. 

Seriously, it happens from pivoting off the trail leg as you suggested. It's the fault I've been trying to fix for a couple years now.

It can result from a sway, but it can also occur from starting with a proper amount of weight back and simply failing to get the hips to shift forward to start the downswing.

Either way, it sucks.

[mvmac]

 

[Vinsk]

Let's hope this shuts the door once and for all. I certainly hope any nay sayers are well informed and can see the notion of gaining flex in the trail knee is 100% wrong and even maintaining the flex is sub-optimal. Done. Great post. Move along now, nothing to see here.....

[Jack Watson]

This is a Brandel Chamblee response.  It's not that either way is wrong it's just that there's two ways of looking at it.  This is Mickey Wright at the top taken from a Wayne Defrancesco analysis.

It's not a myth it's a different philosophy.  Wright won 13 majors and 82 tournaments.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

It's not a myth it's a different philosophy.  Wright won 13 majors and 82 tournaments.

I disagree. The myth is also not "maintain some flex. It's just "maintain the flex."

Mickey hasn't done that. She's extended some.

[Jack Watson]

Here's Wright talking about her swing a bit.

 

http://www.golfchannel.com/video/mickey-wright-talks-about-her-golf-swing/

Edited May 19, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Jack Watson]

For someone who likes an old school pivot this is it.

Its very athletic.  The reason I am alluding to it is in this style,  I was taught by my pro that the right leg is a brace going back.  The key is the stability in the right shin allowing balance while the left knee is released or breaks in hard.  Hip sway not allowed.   You can see Mickey got great hip turn without much extension in the right leg going back.  The knee that makes the big move is the left and that allows the turn and also creates some tilt.

I was taught that in this style the intent is for the right leg to be stable and the left is released.  So the intention behind this as I was taught it was right leg stable left releases.  Of course there's gonna be movement in the right knee going back but the intent is to remain stable.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Jack Watson]

http://www.espn.com/espnw/news-commentary/article/12310951/as-mickey-wright-turns-80-legend-glows-bright

[Jack Watson]

This is a good link.  She credits her coach for teaching her this swing.  Very cool.

http://golfweek.com/2011/11/16/catching-legend-mickey-wright/

[iacas]

Not really sure what you're going on about @Jack Watson…

Mickey Wright did not maintain the trail knee flex throughout the backswing.

True, she did a bit of an Ernie Els "exaggerate the change in the left knee to achieve a hip slant, rotation, etc." move, but her trail knee still extended.

I also don't care what she felt she was doing, preferring instead to look at what she actually did.

 

Virtually every good golfer extends their trail knee during the backswing.

[Moppy]

18 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I was taught by my pro that the right leg is a brace going back.  The key is the stability in the right shin allowing balance while the left knee is released or breaks in hard.  Hip sway not allowed.

This little change turned my game around. I don't lock the knee into a position for the full swing, but I keep my right knee forward of my right foot, is one way to say it, on my backswing, as kind of a brace. It's not so bad to sway a little forward during your downswing, and most people with good swings do it.     

I also stole something from Ian Poulter, and when I am putting or chipping, I flex both knees inward, to freeze my lower body in place, bracing on both sides.  At least I think that is what he is doing. 

If I maintained flex in both knees during the swing, I know I am simply not athletic enough to hit the ball with all of the unpredictable movement going on. 

[Jack Watson]

5 hours ago, iacas said:

Not really sure what you're going on about @Jack Watson…

Mickey Wright did not maintain the trail knee flex throughout the backswing.

True, she did a bit of an Ernie Els "exaggerate the change in the left knee to achieve a hip slant, rotation, etc." move, but her trail knee still extended.

I also don't care what she felt she was doing, preferring instead to look at what she actually did.

 

Virtually every good golfer extends their trail knee during the backswing.

Well,  I was just trying to think of the best example possible of the older style classical pivot in action.  You don't tend to see people working on this style anymore,  or at least I personally have not.

Its a different golf swing than the modern swing.  I mean compare Mickey Wright face on to Charlie Wie.

Very different.  Also I agree her right knee moved an inch or so on the bs.  

I think this older pivot style has a lot of advantages as does the more modern style.  This thread has kind of trended towards the idea that the modern way is what golf is and everything else is incorrect so I decided to express my viewpoint.

 

 

 

 

[coachjimsc]

1 hour ago, Jack Watson said:

I think this older pivot style has a lot of advantages as does the more modern style.

@Jack Watson could you define older pivot style vs more modern style?

Would you consider Snead older or more modern pivot style?

[Jack Watson]

30 minutes ago, coachjimsc said:

@Jack Watson could you define older pivot style vs more modern style?

Would you consider Snead older or more modern pivot style?

I like Sneads swing who doesn't?  For me it's classical.  The left knee kicks in a lot.  It's a great thing to post because you could make an argument it's a hybrid of sorts.  For me a lot of it has to do with the left knee.  Face on here you can see the action.  I am NOT saying that classical is better I am just saying it's different.  Here's face on.  Snead had the squat going on and the extension with the legs.  Very evident here.

If I had to in my amateur way try to posit a definition of the difference it would be that the left hip covers way more ground than the right until some point in the ds.

My best try at explaining what I am getting at is imagined in 2 dimensions from directly above...Imagine the hips are a link of bicycle chain.  What I am talking about as older is the idea that the bicycle chain link has a pin that's fixed on the end of it that's closer to the right leg for a right hander.  So what I see is that in many classic swings the target side of the chain pivots around this on the backswing and then returns back where it was.  Gross oversimplification and incorrect but that's the concept I have in mind if you follow.

In reality the right cheek if you will does not remain fixed but like in Sneads swing moves targetward as his right leg extends.  It's interesting to look opposite face on to see it.

But like I said the primary part I am interested in for the classic or old time deal is the release of the left knee going back.

I am not saying it's easy to do that in fact the opposite.  It ain't easy to learn or anything.  It's not better or worse it's just different.  

Edited May 20, 2017 by Jack Watson

[Jack Watson]

I have to be honest also.  I bought into trying the older style.  It was a lot of work getting just a bit of left knee release.  Once I began to be able to 'get it' a little bit my driving and tee game immediately improved better than I had ever been and my scoring irons went to crap.

Prior to this 150 in was maybe the only strength in my game!

I won't bore you further just want to be clear it's different styles I am alluding to not that one is better.  I tend to focus on advantages to the antiquated way but there's also a lot of difficulties there.  Golf can be tough for people to learn.

[iacas]

There's no such thing as the "classical" pivot. Hogan, Snead, etc. pivoted more like I've suggested than Wright swung in her day.