Want Golf Lessons, but don't want to spend money

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

As Erik said, volume only goes so far. You have to find the right balance as there comes a point that no matter how much you drop your prices, you won't get any more lessons.

I agree 100%. One extreme is pricing yourself out of the market and the other would be to fill your sheet working for a minumum wage.  Like in a great swing, balance is crucial and having some business sense helps too. When you maximize volume and value, then you are able to fulfill your students' needs and make a decent living doing something you enjoy and in turn make it possible to grow your customer base. Every student brings an educational piece, not only to the student, but also to the instructor making them more valuable to future students.  This builds a following, a reputation, and a livelihood.

[newtogolf]

I wasn't directing my comments at anyone here.  You and many of the other instructors in this thread probably represent the top 1% of golf instructors that work with the public.  Visit a regular golf range or course and watch the pro instructor there.  They walk up and down the stalls, looking for someone to offer some "free" advice and then make their pitch on how with just "a few" lessons they could have them .   Then right off the bat they are selling their 10 or 20 lesson packages.  You watched me swing a few times and now you are trying to convince me to sign up for 10 lessons and I'll drop my handicap 10 strokes.  Many of my friends have had the same or worse experiences here in NY and NJ.  James said it himself, there's only about 50 instructors out there who really know what they're talking about.  Even if he's being conservative it means there's more poor instructors than there are good.

I didn't say that any instructor existed that would take a flat rate but in my mind it's a more efficient model for people like me.  If my instructor and I both have the same goal, I'd prefer a model that gets me to that goal quicker by motivating us both to work towards it.  For me, money isn't the issue, it's time.  If I want to learn to improve my pitching and chipping, I want the instructor to help me make that happen as quickly as possible.  I'll put in the time, but I don't want to be "slow played" to maximize the number of lessons I'll need.  Tell me what's it's going to cost to get me there, tell me what I need to do and let's make it happen.  I'll give you 1/2 the money up front, you get the other 1/2 when I'm there.  Then we can talk about fixing my putting.

I realize it's a very different analogy, but in business I refuse to pay for software development by the hour, I do all outsourced software development as fixed price contracts to a mutually agreed to specification.  This way we're all motivated to get it done right and as quickly as possible.  That's what I'd like from an instructor as well.

I'm just giving a different perspective not trying to offend any instructors here.

Originally Posted by iacas

Really? You see that a lot?

And PGA Tour players have instructors, after all, because everyone can get better than they are right now.

That said, we've told a lot of students "go practice that for two months and then come back and see me." We have one guy who comes to see us once a year. He works on the two things we tell him to work on all year, gets better, then comes back the next year. He travels six hours to see us, spends $400 or $500 on the clinic alone, and it's well worth it to him.

You know what I see "a lot"? Golfers not practicing what they're told to practice by their pro. The ones who do get better. The ones who don't get virtually the same lesson again. Sometimes it sinks in the second time. As I said, sometimes a $150 lesson is better than five $50 lessons. A good instructor can take a golfer as far as they want to and are capable of going. Improvement is addicting.

And I bet you don't see instructors "milking" their students nearly as often as you think. And in the cases you think you saw, I'd venture a guess that many times the student doesn't put much or any time into practice away from the instructor, and that the only time they practice is when they're taking a lesson. We've told students "if I give you a lesson today it's going to be the same as the last time because you've not actually practiced it."

Then again, maybe you're right. I've never claimed to be like "most" golf instructors. Which is why I can charge $80 and why Dave can charge $110 and our students are happy to pay it.

Good luck finding that chump. What motivation do you have to actually get better?

The reason that seems like a great deal to you is because it is - you're ripping off the pro. There's no objective way to measure the "specified results" and it's ridiculous to think a pro is going to rely on your ability (or inability) to do something or understand something. An instructor would be better off paying you $100 not to waste his time than to take that kind of deal.

[newtogolf]

I'm not saying this model works for everyone, but for someone like me I think they'd prefer it.  I hate doing things just for the sake of doing them, i.e. if you can really teach me in 3 hours what I need to know, then don't trickle the information out to me over 10 just because you want to maximize your income.  Charge me more for 3 lessons, get me where I need to go and let's move on to the next goal.

Desire is pretty easy to determine in a first or second meeting.  If you don't think I have the desire or talent be professional enough to tell me and suggest I find someone else to instruct me just don't keep taking the money.

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Quote:

You forgot the smilies. What's the end goal and if there was a consensus at the beginning, what incentive would there be for any coach in any sport or activity to declare the student has reached their initial goal therfore no longer needs instruction?  Actually, maybe that's the coaching philosophy of the Canadian national soccer team.

Would students with no talent or desire to practice between lessons be forced to pay the instructor more for wasting his time? I mean, he could decide to become very selective and only accept students with potential to reach a definable goal. Some of the guys who get lessons and never improve might never have gotten past the first lesson / screening process.

EDIT: while typing this I wasn't the only one having this thought apparently.

[newtogolf]

I understand your point and the others made here.  You guys are the exception.  The fact you're confident enough in your skills to offer a free lesson tells me you're probably very good at what you do.  The goals would have to be solid objectives specific to one part of the game, improve long distance putting, improve chip shots, remove the slice from my drive.  Something measurable and specific enough so that if I'm chipping great and my putting is horrible, I don't want to come to you to work on my chipping anymore it's a waste of both our time.

Originally Posted by CrossGolfPro

Newtogolf,

Only area I would disagree with on that point is everyone has a different learning curve.  So if you came to me and paid $100, does that fee last a month? two months? a year?  I understand where you're coming from, but what I do is give the first lesson for free so the customer can decide if I'm worth the investment.  Second is to state that here's my rate, but if you cannot pay in full we can work something out.  Growing the game is important, but it would be like going to work and your company paying you a paycheck but then saying well we will pay you again when we're satisfied with the progress you made.  When does that happen?

[CrossGolfPro]

Newt,

Coming from my own student experience, unfortunately a lot of teaching pros don't take the time to ask their students questions about their goals, sports background, injuries and etc.  So there I would definitely concede that point and you're right.  I've had teachers that basically had no plan on what they wanted to teach.  One instance I told our pro for the following week we wanted to work on putting, he picks us up in the cart to drive us to the range and I ask where we're going..."we're going to work on driving".  No.we're not!

If there's a way Newt I can help you out finding a teacher and what to look for let me know.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I'm just giving a different perspective not trying to offend any instructors here.

No one has taken offence, newtogolf. I, for one, like new ideas. I am always willing to listen to the concerns of my students, especially if it is over the lesson fee. However, there comes a point where you cannot teach for free. There is a minimum fee for every instructor. I don't mind offering a discount for a series of lessons, or if they are unemployed etc. but until someone comes up with a plan which suits both student and teacher, we are stuck with the hourly fee.

[newtogolf]

I fully understand your point as the model requires both parties to have the right and best intentions and there's no way to know in advance if that is the case.  I've always been one to dislike the hourly wage as I don't think it properly motivates people to achieve success.  I don't expect anyone to work for free and for many people I'm sure the current model works.  I just don't feel it's very efficient or effective for people like me.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

No one has taken offence, newtogolf. I, for one, like new ideas. I am always willing to listen to the concerns of my students, especially if it is over the lesson fee. However, there comes a point where you cannot teach for free. There is a minimum fee for every instructor. I don't mind offering a discount for a series of lessons, or if they are unemployed etc. but until someone comes up with a plan which suits both student and teacher, we are stuck with the hourly fee.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I fully understand your point as the model requires both parties to have the right and best intentions and there's no way to know in advance if that is the case.  I've always been one to dislike the hourly wage as I don't think it properly motivates people to achieve success.  I don't expect anyone to work for free and for many people I'm sure the current model works.  I just don't feel it's very efficient or effective for people like me.

With the hourly fee you have to assume the instructor wants you to get better. No instructor in their right mind will just string you along not trying to improve your game as 99% of students will walk away within 3-4 lessons. That's not good business. Plus, the student won't recommend you to any of his golfing buddies, and perhaps worse, even talk badly about you. Once again, that's not good business. The only way to keep students happy and coming back for more is to help them get better.

An hour of a good instructors time is well worth the money IF the student follows the instructors advice to the letter. Unfortunately, this is rarely the case as students expect miracles. They'll tell you they don't but really they do. Few fully understand how difficult it is to make changes and expect (demand?) results overnight. They'll not practice at all, or practice poorly not following the instructors advice, get nowhere and abandon the effort to improve. They'll stick to their poor technique until they get frustrated again and then try another instructor when it gets so bad they can't finish a round of golf because they lose every ball they had. It's a vicious circle.

I know this because I used to be that student, until I realised I was the problem, not the instructor. After taking lessons with 5-6 instructors in my area over a period of 5-6 years I suddenly realised they were all telling me to do the same thing. It wasn't poor information, it was my inability to stick to the changes and work hard until I implemented them. It wasn't the intructors that were unable to motivate me, I was unable to motivate myself.

I tell my students they need to stop looking for excuses and do everything in their power to improve. They need to video themselves correctly, with an iPhone or whatever, download V1, understand their swing and what they need to do to improve. I even dedicate extra time to teach them how to analyse their swings. In this way, they'll know what to look for while they are making the changes and come back for the next lesson when they've succeeded. The last thing any instructor wants is to repeat the same lesson over and over again to the same student.

[iacas]

Gotta pack so I'll try to be quick.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I agree with everything you've said, however what I have found is that you usually make more money if you drop your prices as you get more lessons. If you are charging $90 an hour you may get 8 lessons a week, however if you drop your fee to $45 your likely to get 20+. It may not seem like a lot, but that's an extra $720 you make a month. It's worth the effort if you can get 20 lessons as a 20-hour week is nothing. I guess it depends on what sort of instructor you are and how important money is to you. Personally, I'd rather drop my prices and have a "fuller" week.

I'm not keen on just making up numbers, but using your numbers, here goes. There are a lot of instructors out there who would rather make $720 and work eight to ten hours a week than make $900 and work 20-25 hours per week. That's $180 a week for an extra 10-17 hours of work?

Originally Posted by CrossGolfPro

I one way golf instructors can help grow their business and meet the needs of their customers is help them to make paying for lessons reasonable.  You may not have to drop your prices, but work out ways for students to make payments on lessons that won't destroy their budgets.  We don't have to be hard headed and say you have to pay me X for Y all in one shot.

Speaking solely for myself, no thanks. I've got better things to do than try to chase down people on payment plans or something.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

They walk up and down the stalls, looking for someone to offer some "free" advice and then make their pitch on how with just "a few" lessons they could have them .

You're right. I don't concern myself with those idiots. And James may have been generous in saying 50. :)

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I didn't say that any instructor existed that would take a flat rate but in my mind it's a more efficient model for people like me.

I don't mean any offense by this, but of course you think so. It's quite literally a steal for you and the deal completely screws the instructor. An instructor can not tie his performance and remuneration to the performance of the student. Even on the PGA Tour they don't do that, and those guys have a hell of a lot more motivation to earn money than you do. Instructors will get a flat fee and sometimes a percentage, but the flat fee (an hourly rate, or a day rate, or whatever) is included.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I realize it's a very different analogy, but in business I refuse to pay for software development by the hour, I do all outsourced software development as fixed price contracts to a mutually agreed to specification.

I'm in the software world too. It's a poor analogy because it's relatively easy to define the standards and specification. You can't do that with a student. The instructor says "you've improved" and you disagree. Where does that leave you both? There's no way to "specify" improvement. You're paying for an instructor's time (and the knowledge and help he'll provide during that time, of course). If what the instructor charges for his time isn't worth it, don't pay it. It's that simple.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Desire is pretty easy to determine in a first or second meeting.  If you don't think I have the desire or talent be professional enough to tell me and suggest I find someone else to instruct me just don't keep taking the money.

You need to do a better job of finding a good instructor. I shudder to think at the people you've taken lessons from if you keep saying things like this. Yikes.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

The goals would have to be solid objectives specific to one part of the game, improve long distance putting, improve chip shots, remove the slice from my drive.  Something measurable and specific enough so that if I'm chipping great and my putting is horrible, I don't want to come to you to work on my chipping anymore it's a waste of both our time.

You can't specify what "improve" means. And if some guy turns your slice into duck-hooks that don't get more than 10 feet off the ground, does he get the second half of his money then?

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I've always been one to dislike the hourly wage as I don't think it properly motivates people to achieve success.

If the instructor is any good at all he's motivated because word of mouth advertising is free and effective. And what kind of idiot takes the tenth lesson when lessons 1-9 didn't result in anything but being strung along? Or, for that matter, what idiot takes the SECOND lesson if the FIRST one is crap?

Heck, I'm of the opinion that most people should do a little talking to an instructor to see if the FIRST lesson is worth taking. The good instructors are often happy to answer your questions, share some thoughts, etc.

P.S. If any of the above seems harsh it's not meant to be, and I apologize in advance if it seems so. I hate shitty instructors more than you do, because they hurt everyone in the business, and they hurt the good instructors most.

[CrossGolfPro]

iacas...seems kind of cold hearted to say "you have better things to do" than chase people for payment plans.  What do you have to do that's better than growing the game and still generating revenue?  I'd rather have a quick nickel than a slow dime.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CrossGolfPro

iacas...seems kind of cold hearted to say "you have better things to do" than chase people for payment plans.  What do you have to do that's better than growing the game and still generating revenue?  I'd rather have a quick nickel than a slow dime.

That response doesn't make any sense. I'm not in the business of pestering someone to pay me or effectively offering loans to students, and neither of those things has the slightest bit to do with "growing the game."

[CrossGolfPro]

You're in the business to teach golf and make a profit so turning away business from people who can make payments doesn't make sense

[iacas]

Originally Posted by CrossGolfPro

You're in the business to teach golf and make a profit so turning away business from people who can make payments doesn't make sense

I'm not in the business of loaning people money.

If Bob wants a lesson, rather than taking a lesson in March and paying me some in March, April, and May, howsabout Bob just saves up and takes the lesson and pays me in May?

If you want to waste your time tracking "payments" and hounding people who still owe you, be my guest. It's not something I'm at all interested in doing.

[TourSpoon]

I have to agree that most people have better things to do than chase down money. Loaning money and taking payment plans would not be high on my list unless it was for a contracted agreement.  And crappy instructors hurt everyone. I have never been solicited for a lesson like you guys have, but I only visit green grass facilities and the instructors are very ethical. The same goes for the courses that I have worked at. I have met plenty of people full of shit, full of themselves (which is almost as bad), and guys that have no clue, but they don't seem to last anywhere too long.

I am curious who is on the "less than 50" in the world list that ErIk referenced from James' post. If there are less than 50 how about putting out a thread about who is on the list and who isn't.  That is less than one per state plus the rest of the world. Seems like very rarified air to me.  Maybe I am misunderstanding the statement, but seeing it twice got my curiosity piqued.

[james_hirshfield]

I'm just thinking out loud, and with convincing, especially as a lot of this is preference and not science.

I would NEVER give a free lesson to Joe Public. Reason is simple. My time has monetary value. The golfer WILL improve, and I define improve my showing "measurable results". That is EXACTLY what the pictures and notes are for. To show the golfer that following MY information, will improve your SWING/SHORTGAME/PUTTING. The proof is in the picture/video/trackman numbers/ball.

The difference is this does NOT always equate always to their scores, because there are TOO many factors. Maybe they just couldn't be bothered to tap that 3 footer in properly, and whacked it 5 foot passed. Triple Bogey. Not because of MY info.

Often, again as to why I would charge, and my time has value, is because the golfer isn't forced into having to return every week, or into a "package".

I've taught a golfer who travelled for the day, spent some time with me, then went and won the Pennsylvania Senior Amateur Championship. He was SO happy with how we was doing, he didn't want to add anything to his thought process or practice regime.

Results speak, and word of mouth is the best. But I think you have to know what you are doing to be able to stand there "as a young certified S&T; instructor with a video camera :P " and with confidence, say, Yes I charge this amount, lets get cracking.

If you're charging $20... does that instill doubt into the clients head that your time isn't worth money?

Just my thoughts, and like I said, my opinion, and could change if I see reason.

[newtogolf]

Maybe that's the case, but if you just read your own site you'll see there's plenty of instructors out there that don't share your views.  Just this month we had a Golf Digest article (flexed right leg for power) that went against what you teach.  There are numerous swing theories and derivations of swing theories out there.  I believe you don't claim to teach Stack and Tilt but share methods with the S&T; guys.  There are instructors that tell you the take away starts with the hands, the next tells you to do a one piece, the next tells you use your hips.  Instructors can't even agree on how to grip a club or where the ball should be positioned at address.

I think you've forgotten what it's like to be a student that doesn't have access to the top instructors or when they get a reference from friend for a new instructor, the new instructor wants to totally undo what the previous taught him and start from scratch at $100 per lesson.

I get you don't want to be on the hook for collecting money or guaranteeing results when you can't control the efforts of the students but putting all the responsibility on the student doesn't seem fair either when you readily acknowledge how many crappy instructors there are teaching golf today.

Originally Posted by iacas

You need to do a better job of finding a good instructor. I shudder to think at the people you've taken lessons from if you keep saying things like this. Yikes.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Maybe that's the case, but if you just read your own site you'll see there's plenty of instructors out there that don't share your views.  Just this month we had a Golf Digest article (flexed right leg for power) that went against what you teach.  There are numerous swing theories and derivations of swing theories out there.  I believe you don't claim to teach Stack and Tilt but share methods with the S&T; guys.  There are instructors that tell you the take away starts with the hands, the next tells you to do a one piece, the next tells you use your hips.  Instructors can't even agree on how to grip a club or where the ball should be positioned at address.

Yes, there are lots of "theories" out there, but physics and geometry don't change, and a lot of people don't even practice what they preach let alone have the knowledge to explain why they teach what they teach. Those are some of the things which separate good from bad.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I think you've forgotten what it's like to be a student that doesn't have access to the top instructors or when they get a reference from friend for a new instructor, the new instructor wants to totally undo what the previous taught him and start from scratch at $100 per lesson.

I haven't forgotten what it's like. I just think those types of instructors should be avoided. Why would anyone go along with that? Why is "let's completely break down your swing and rebuild it" at all appealing to people? I don't do that. James doesn't do that. Dave doesn't do that. Mike doesn't do that.

You do have access to the top instructors. I give away more good information here most weeks than you'll get from Golf Digest in a year or two. And with that information you should be able to ask an instructor reasonable questions or know enough about the golf swing to know when an instructor is full of crap. And I charge a hell of a lot less than Butch Harmon.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I get you don't want to be on the hook for collecting money or guaranteeing results when you can't control the efforts of the students but putting all the responsibility on the student doesn't seem fair either when you readily acknowledge how many crappy instructors there are teaching golf today.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make sense to me. The student pays for x amount of time for $y. In no way is that the same as "all the responsibility is on the student." The student is the student.

If you could, summarize your point in a sentence, because I'm not sure what you're really saying.

[gmbtempe]

When I first saw moradman's comment about 50 instructors I thought that was a bit harsh but thinking back on it maybe it is not.

I think golf instruction for the most part is horrible out there.

What should the student get if he pays hard earned money, at a very high rate, works his butt off, yet does not get better?  Should they get a refund?  If they say something to the instructor is the first thing the instructor thinks is "you aint got any talent to hit a ball anyways"?

Its supply and demand to me, its worth whatever someway will pay.  As the student though in the game of golf instruction goes I might have to spend 1500 an hour after you add up all the wasted lessons just to find the right guy who is charging the 100.

As the student its really not that fun and in comparison to other professional industries the variation between individuals is much more extreme.