Want Golf Lessons, but don't want to spend money

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by k-troop

Best way to get value out of golf lessons:

1. Find a good instructor.

2. Pay him or her what he or she is worth.

3. Pay attention during the session.  Make sure you really understand what they're trying to teach you.

4. Practice, practice, practice and practice some more the techniques you're being taught.

5. Follow up with the instructor to check on your progress.

I don't bother with golf instruction anymore, because I don't like to practice.  If you don't, you might as well just buy some whisky--makes every round better with minimal effort.

I fully agree with k-troop on this issue.

Ask around your area to find the instructor with the best rep i.e. he improves his students. Then don't be afraid to conduct a few interviews with potential instructors so you can get a feel for them and their teaching philosophy. No decent instructor will mind spending 15-20 mins with you to explain to you how he can help you with your game. Listen to him carefully and make sure you like what you hear before signing up for lessons. Make sure he uses video camera to show you what you are doing and what you need to be doing, and monitor your progress.

After that, it is in your hands. You must have the discipline to practice as much as possible and not give up the moment you start to struggle. If you don't like practicing and have very little patience, skip lessons. They are not for you. An instructor worth his weight in gold will be able to convince you the changes are right and motivate you to succeed in implementing them.

[HeadGolfool]

Everyone thinks they need more lessons to improve, when what they really need is to think their way around the course better and learn to play to their strengths.  You being a 10 handicapper, can take you game to the next level by spending the majority of you time working on your shots from less than 100 yards. Even as your game improves you are going to miss 30-40% of the greens in regulation, so having a great short game will take you to the next level faster than trying to perfect your swing.  Distance is so over rated and many times can be your biggest enemy.  At 61, I am so much shorter than I was when I was younger but I am so much better with my strategy and mental side I can still play to a 3.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by HeadGolfool

Everyone thinks they need more lessons to improve, when what they really need is to think their way around the course better and learn to play to their strengths.  You being a 10 handicapper, can take you game to the next level by spending the majority of you time working on your shots from less than 100 yards. Even as your game improves you are going to miss 30-40% of the greens in regulation, so having a great short game will take you to the next level faster than trying to perfect your swing.  Distance is so over rated and many times can be your biggest enemy.  At 61, I am so much shorter than I was when I was younger but I am so much better with my strategy and mental side I can still play to a 3.

Honestly, I don't think the statistics bear that out, nor does my experience. Most mid-handicappers seem to have a decent short game relative to their full swing. If their full swing handicap is a 12 their short game handicap is often an 8.

Putting and the short game are fairly simple to get good at. An hour spent putting and chipping is going to result in a bigger improvement in that - with less maintenance time - than an hour spent on the full swing. I think that, in general, people should practice with a purpose (see my Swing Thoughts thread on that topic ), and spend 60% of their time on the full swing, 30% on the short game, and 10% on putting.

[The_Pharaoh]

My experience is that mid- to high handicappers would be better off working on their long games, rather than their course managment, as their long games are simply not good enough to put the ball where they want it to go. Just because mid- to high handicappers are not good golfers technically-speaking, doesn't make them stupid. They want to hit the ball down the middle of the fairway, then up close to the green, chip on and one or two putt but their poor long game means they are slicing their drives into the trees, then chipping out sideways, then pulling their approach shot into a bunker before they can even say short game. They are better off dedicating an hour of practice to fixing their swingpath than being told to hit it down the middle of the fairway.

[CrossGolfPro]

I'm an instructor, but I've also ran other businesses and it's more about what your target market will bear...despite what you think you're worth

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

Just because mid- to high handicappers are not good golfers technically-speaking, doesn't make them stupid.

No it's the golfer part that makes them stupid and it applies to all of us regardless of skill level...or so I have been told by people who are not obsessed about chasing the little white ball. They so do not get it!

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by CrossGolfPro

I'm an instructor, but I've also ran other businesses and it's more about what your target market will bear...despite what you think you're worth

Great point...I know a guy who was getting 95 for 45 minutes teaching no one. The guy down the street who cut his rate just to stay alive in the economy, built his business, and put bread on the table. He was worth more than what he was charging at the time but he also liked to eat and it beat trying to sell cars. Oh, he is still teaching golf.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Great point...I know a guy who was getting 95 for 45 minutes teaching no one. The guy down the street who cut his rate just to stay alive in the economy, built his business, and put bread on the table. He was worth more than what he was charging at the time but he also liked to eat and it beat trying to sell cars. Oh, he is still teaching golf.

I agree with you and CGPro, golf instructors are petrified of dropping their prices as they feel it devalues their service and they won't be able to increase them in better times. Unfortunately, you've got to price yourself according to what people are able and willing to pay now, not what you think you are worth compared to other instructors. It is best to offer a discount for a series of lessons or because the student is a junior or unemployed etc., rather than sticking rigidly to one price for all. I'd rather be busy, getting people through the door than hanging around the range all day with nothing to do. You actually make more money this way.

As mentioned in this thread, many mid- to high handicappers cannot tell the difference between a good teacher and a bad one, and go purely on price a lot of the times. When they see a young S&T; certificed instructor with a video camera charging 90 $ a lesson and a old geezer leaning on his 7 iron charging 30 $ a lesson, the decision is a no brainer. They think it is the same service so price wins out every time. Only the better golfer knows the two services are world's apart.

[newtogolf]

As someone who has paid for lessons I think instructors need to understand that the model of "paying for lessons" is a bit flawed.  If I'm paying an instructor $50 - $100/hr and he's struggling to keep food on his table what's his real motivation to get me to where I want to be?  I guess he can hope I'll tell my buddies about how great he is and maybe one of them will pay him, but there's not any guarantee.  I see and hear a lot of instructors milking their existing students for every penny they can and it seems they never reach a point where the instructor says, you're looking good, I don't think you need any more lessons.

In this economy I'd be more willing to work with an instructor who says pay me a flat rate to achieve specified results and he'll continue to work with me until I get there.  Now I know I've got an instructor motivated to really help me as quickly as he and I can work to get there.  Such an arrangement removes all motivation to stretch out his lessons because his business is hurting and he needs my $100 every week or two in order to keep the roof over his head.

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

As mentioned in this thread, many mid- to high handicappers cannot tell the difference between a good teacher and a bad one, and go purely on price a lot of the times. When they see a young S&T; certificed instructor with a video camera charging 90 $ a lesson and a old geezer leaning on his 7 iron charging 30 $ a lesson, the decision is a no brainer. They think it is the same service so price wins out every time. Only the better golfer knows the two services are world's apart.

[CrossGolfPro]

Newtogolf,

Only area I would disagree with on that point is everyone has a different learning curve.  So if you came to me and paid $100, does that fee last a month? two months? a year?  I understand where you're coming from, but what I do is give the first lesson for free so the customer can decide if I'm worth the investment.  Second is to state that here's my rate, but if you cannot pay in full we can work something out.  Growing the game is important, but it would be like going to work and your company paying you a paycheck but then saying well we will pay you again when we're satisfied with the progress you made.  When does that happen?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

As someone who has paid for lessons I think instructors need to understand that the model of "paying for lessons" is a bit flawed.  If I'm paying an instructor $50 - $100/hr and he's struggling to keep food on his table what's his real motivation to get me to where I want to be?

Huh?

Happy customers - i.e. golfers who are improving - are the best advertisements. That's his motivation. I like helping people get better at golf. They lead happier lives and enjoy their time with their friends more.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I see and hear a lot of instructors milking their existing students for every penny they can and it seems they never reach a point where the instructor says, you're looking good, I don't think you need any more lessons.

Really? You see that a lot?

And PGA Tour players have instructors, after all, because everyone can get better than they are right now.

That said, we've told a lot of students "go practice that for two months and then come back and see me." We have one guy who comes to see us once a year. He works on the two things we tell him to work on all year, gets better, then comes back the next year. He travels six hours to see us, spends $400 or $500 on the clinic alone, and it's well worth it to him.

You know what I see "a lot"? Golfers not practicing what they're told to practice by their pro. The ones who do get better. The ones who don't get virtually the same lesson again. Sometimes it sinks in the second time. As I said, sometimes a $150 lesson is better than five $50 lessons. A good instructor can take a golfer as far as they want to and are capable of going. Improvement is addicting.

And I bet you don't see instructors "milking" their students nearly as often as you think. And in the cases you think you saw, I'd venture a guess that many times the student doesn't put much or any time into practice away from the instructor, and that the only time they practice is when they're taking a lesson. We've told students "if I give you a lesson today it's going to be the same as the last time because you've not actually practiced it."

Then again, maybe you're right. I've never claimed to be like "most" golf instructors. Which is why I can charge $80 and why Dave can charge $110 and our students are happy to pay it.

BTW, volume only goes so far. Obviously I'd rather give five lessons at $110 than twelve at $40. Heck, I'd rather give one lesson at $80 than four at $30. There's more to life and the business of being a golf instructor than making money. In fact, here's another thing: students who pay more for lessons are generally more committed and thus more fun to work with because they're more likely to practice what you teach, be engaged in the lesson, ask good questions, learn , and improve .

Originally Posted by newtogolf

In this economy I'd be more willing to work with an instructor who says pay me a flat rate to achieve specified results and he'll continue to work with me until I get there.

Good luck finding that chump. What motivation do you have to actually get better?

The reason that seems like a great deal to you is because it is - you're ripping off the pro. There's no objective way to measure the "specified results" and it's ridiculous to think a pro is going to rely on your ability (or inability) to do something or understand something. An instructor would be better off paying you $100 not to waste his time than to take that kind of deal.

[sean_miller]

Quote:

As someone who has paid for lessons I think instructors need to understand that the model of "paying for lessons" is a bit flawed.  If I'm paying an instructor $50 - $100/hr and he's struggling to keep food on his table what's his real motivation to get me to where I want to be?  I guess he can hope I'll tell my buddies about how great he is and maybe one of them will pay him, but there's not any guarantee.  I see and hear a lot of instructors milking their existing students for every penny they can and it seems they never reach a point where the instructor says, you're looking good, I don't think you need any more lessons.

In this economy I'd be more willing to work with an instructor who says pay me a flat rate to achieve specified results and he'll continue to work with me until I get there.  Now I know I've got an instructor motivated to really help me as quickly as he and I can work to get there.  Such an arrangement removes all motivation to stretch out his lessons because his business is hurting and he needs my $100 every week or two in order to keep the roof over his head.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

As mentioned in this thread, many mid- to high handicappers cannot tell the difference between a good teacher and a bad one, and go purely on price a lot of the times. When they see a young S&T; certificed instructor with a video camera charging 90 $ a lesson and a old geezer leaning on his 7 iron charging 30 $ a lesson, the decision is a no brainer. They think it is the same service so price wins out every time. Only the better golfer knows the two services are world's apart.

You forgot the smilies. What's the end goal and if there was a consensus at the beginning, what incentive would there be for any coach in any sport or activity to declare the student has reached their initial goal therfore no longer needs instruction?  Actually, maybe that's the coaching philosophy of the Canadian national soccer team.

Would students with no talent or desire to practice between lessons be forced to pay the instructor more for wasting his time? I mean, he could decide to become very selective and only accept students with potential to reach a definable goal. Some of the guys who get lessons and never improve might never have gotten past the first lesson / screening process.

EDIT: while typing this I wasn't the only one having this thought apparently.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by iacas

BTW, volume only goes so far. Obviously I'd rather give five lessons at $110 than twelve at $40. Heck, I'd rather give one lesson at $80 than four at $30. There's more to life and the business of being a golf instructor than making money. In fact, here's another thing: students who pay more for lessons are generally more committed and thus more fun to work with because they're more likely to practice what you teach, be engaged in the lesson, ask good questions, learn, and improve.

I agree with everything you've said, however what I have found is that you usually make more money if you drop your prices as you get more lessons. If you are charging $90 an hour you may get 8 lessons a week, however if you drop your fee to $45 your likely to get 20+. It may not seem like a lot, but that's an extra $720 you make a month. It's worth the effort if you can get 20 lessons as a 20-hour week is nothing. I guess it depends on what sort of instructor you are and how important money is to you. Personally, I'd rather drop my prices and have a "fuller" week.

[badfish74]

How much do they charge for a 1/2 hour video lesson?  At least with that you have something you can take with you and review when you practice.

Everything in this game is expensive.  It is up to you to determine if you feel the lessons offered are worth it.  You are not going to get a pro to teach you for free.

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

I agree with everything you've said, however what I have found is that you usually make more money if you drop your prices as you get more lessons. If you are charging $90 an hour you may get 8 lessons a week, however if you drop your fee to $45 your likely to get 20+. It may not seem like a lot, but that's an extra $720 you make a month. It's worth the effort if you can get 20 lessons as a 20-hour week is nothing. I guess it depends on what sort of instructor you are and how important money is to you. Personally, I'd rather drop my prices and have a "fuller" week.

Well there has to be a balance especially when building or rebuilding a business. You can price yourself out of the market or you can find a price point (value point) that you and your clients can live with and build your base.

Originally Posted by badfish74

Everything in this game is expensive.  It is up to you to determine if you feel the lessons offered are worth it.  You are not going to get a pro to teach you for free.

it's cheaper than salt water fishing (when you add the boat in).

[TourSpoon]

Originally Posted by iacas

You know what I see "a lot"? Golfers not practicing what they're told to practice by their pro. The ones who do get better. The ones who don't get virtually the same lesson again. Sometimes it sinks in the second time. As I said, sometimes a $150 lesson is better than five $50 lessons. A good instructor can take a golfer as far as they want to and are capable of going. Improvement is addicting...

Improvement is addicting. Once you improve you want more and you see the value of instruction.

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by badfish74

How much do they charge for a 1/2 hour video lesson?  At least with that you have something you can take with you and review when you practice.

Who's they? I don't offer 1/2 hour lessons and use video for every lesson. I then send a short follow up e-mail with what they need to work on, usually a couple of bullet points.

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Well there has to be a balance especially when building or rebuilding a business. You can price yourself out of the market or you can find a price point (value point) that you and your clients can live with and build your base.

As Erik said, volume only goes so far. You have to find the right balance as there comes a point that no matter how much you drop your prices, you won't get any more lessons.

[CrossGolfPro]

I one way golf instructors can help grow their business and meet the needs of their customers is help them to make paying for lessons reasonable.  You may not have to drop your prices, but work out ways for students to make payments on lessons that won't destroy their budgets.  We don't have to be hard headed and say you have to pay me X for Y all in one shot.