Advice or fact?

[rustyredcab]

Originally Posted by Shorty

No you can't. Not when they are your opponent as well.

...

You sure? Wouldn't partner trump opponent?

Something that has come up is accidentally hitting someone's cart. In that case we've always played that you hit your partner's cart. (We are some really bad golfers.)

[Dormie1360]

Shorty is correct.  This would be a similar format,

8-1/22 Team Mates Playing as Fellow-Competitors Exchange Advice

Q.The format for a competition between two teams is as follows: Individual stroke play, with the winner being the team with the lowest aggregate score. Play is in groups of four, with two players from each team in each group.
In such an event, may two team members playing in the same group give each other advice?

A. No. The team mates are fellow-competitors and not partners in this type of event, which is not the same as fourball stroke play (Rule 31-1), and they would be penalised for each breach of Rule 8-1.

[behing19]

After everybody in your group has played you can ask, but he does not have to answer you.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by behing19

After everybody in your group has played you can ask, but he does not have to answer you.

Just so everyone is clear.  Here's the definition.

Advice

“ Advice ’’ is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke .

Information on the Rules , distance or matters of public information, such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green , is not advice .

You can not give advice to anyone in the competition on the course other than your partner.   (doesn't matter what format)

You can not ask for advice  in the competition  from anyone other than your partner or each of your caddies.(doesn't matter what format)

Before you play a stroke advice would include things like what club to use,  whether or not to take an unplayable lie, swing instruction, things like that.

In the example: after everyone in the group has hit and then asking what club was used,  that's ok  The strokes have already been made.  See the first sentence in the definition.  On the other hand, if advice was asked or given on something like swing instruction, (your aiming right of your target, how was my alignment) you now have given information to a player on the method of making future strokes.  So there is a penalty with this kind of advice regardless if everyone has hit or not.

One interesting decision is if two players share the same caddie.  In that case player A may ask the caddie what club player B has just used.  A may ask his caddie any information that the caddie may posses.  The fact that the caddie is also the opponent or fellow competitors caddie is irrelevant.

An exception to the rule on who is allowed to give advice allows the committee to designate  an additional person in team competition to give advice.  Usually a coach, or in the case of the Ryder Cup a team captain.

There are some other nuances, but those are the main points.  Having said that, in casual play, I probably break this rule a bunch.

[joekelly]

How about this: no one asks and i am not suggesting to you but for the world at large to hear on the 3rd tee i holler out " i have in my hand the eight iron".   Seems like  that would be OK, since this is not a suggestion nor advice but only a statement of my intent.  Consider also this: on the tee box, before i hit the ball i elevate the ball off the turf onto a small wooden peg and you see me do that and ask me 'is that a wooden peg, joe?'  Ooops, that may be advice as it may influence you since you only carry plastic pegs!!  Sometimes these Rules seem a bit looney.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by joekelly

How about this: no one asks and i am not suggesting to you but for the world at large to hear on the 3rd tee i holler out " i have in my hand the eight iron".   Seems like  that would be OK, since this is not a suggestion nor advice but only a statement of my intent.  Consider also this: on the tee box, before i hit the ball i elevate the ball off the turf onto a small wooden peg and you see me do that and ask me 'is that a wooden peg, joe?'  Ooops, that may be advice as it may influence you since you only carry plastic pegs!!  Sometimes these Rules seem a bit looney.

The rule is only looney if you expect it to precisely spell out every detail of what is and isn't allowed. You simply have to look at the context, and this is a strength. The rules don't aim to punish innocent behavior---if you shank your tee shot and in your frustration complain under your breath, "Curse this $#%@#! five iron," there's not going to be a penalty even if someone hears you. People commonly say things unintentionally in that situation, so it'd be clear that it wasn't giving advice. On the other hand, in your situation, it's probably hard to explain why someone might do that. It amounts to announcing to your group what you're playing, so I'd think a penalty would be warranted (assuming you're playing in a situation where you're following the "administrative" rules precisely).

Your peg example is almost ridiculous, but upon further thought, I think there is something nontrivial to it (albeit in a very rules-stickler sort of way). Simply asking about material is certainly not advice. You could ask your opponent about the shafts he has in his clubs, what his driver is made out of, etc, and there's no way this could be construed as soliciting advice. Your clubs are already chosen, so his answer cannot influence the current round. It might affect his next club purchase, but that's outside the scope of the rules.

However, the tricky (stickler) bit might come up if I'm using both wooden and plastic tees during a round. In that case, I might be asking you what kind of tee you used in order to decide which I should use in this situation. That would not be allowed, just from the basic definition of advice. Does it actually affect play? No, probably not. Does it mean the rule is looney? No! There would be two alternatives: either freely allow advice, which is a terrible idea; or have an even more complicated rule that involves deciding whether the advice is materially beneficial to its recipient. Would anyone be likely to be penalized for this? I doubt it, but it's a pretty contrived situation.

(Similarly, if your fellow competitor had a graphite-shafted 3W and a steel-shafted 5W and you asked what his shaft was made of to figure out which wood he was using, you'd be soliciting advice rather than asking an innocent question. It might be hard to detect and penalize, but that doesn't make it legal.)

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by joekelly

How about this: no one asks and i am not suggesting to you but for the world at large to hear on the 3rd tee i holler out " i have in my hand the eight iron".   Seems like  that would be OK, .

It would be OK, if you hollered out also '.. and I have my dick between my ears!'

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by joekelly

How about this: no one asks and i am not suggesting to you but for the world at large to hear on the 3rd tee i holler out " i have in my hand the eight iron".   Seems like  that would be OK, since this is not a suggestion nor advice but only a statement of my intent.  Consider also this: on the tee box, before i hit the ball i elevate the ball off the turf onto a small wooden peg and you see me do that and ask me 'is that a wooden peg, joe?'  Ooops, that may be advice as it may influence you since you only carry plastic pegs!!  Sometimes these Rules seem a bit looney.

Pretty much what zeg said.

8-1/8

Comment About Club Selection After Stroke

Q. After playing a stroke, a player says: "I should have used a 5iron." Was the player in breach of Rule 8-1 ?

A. If the statement was made casually, there was no breach. If the statement was made to another player who had a shot to play from about the same position, there was a breach.

8-1/9

Misleading Statement About Club Selection

Q. A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?

A. A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

Rule 8 is one of the shortest rules in the rule book.  I think a lot of times we try to read more into the rule than is actually there.

“ Advice ’’ is any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke .

Seems easy enough..  If you can avoid talking about club selection, swing mechanics, or aiming points I think you've stayed away from 99% of the gotchas.  I think we get into trouble because most of us ignore this rule when we are playing with our buddies.  You do have to pay attention to what you say in tournaments.

[zipazoid]

Ok here's a what-if that clouds it...

Let's say, in a tournament, a pro is standing next to Feherty. The first guy picks his club, caddy signals to Feherty it's a 6-iron. Pro hears Feherty say 'He's hitting 6 iron'.

For that matter, let's say the pro's caddy listens to the broadcast via an internet feed or something thru a headset so he's getting info on what the other pros are hitting & he conveys that info to his pro.

Violation?

I think the answer is no since the pro didn't ask & the pro hitting the shot didn't offer it up. The info was gleaned thru other methods.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I get the spirit of the rule - in order to protect the field, you can't give advice to a fellow competitor. Understood. Creates an unfair advantage. It's just a rule loaded with nuances.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Ok here's a what-if that clouds it...

Let's say, in a tournament, a pro is standing next to Feherty. The first guy picks his club, caddy signals to Feherty it's a 6-iron. Pro hears Feherty say 'He's hitting 6 iron'.

For that matter, let's say the pro's caddy listens to the broadcast via an internet feed or something thru a headset so he's getting info on what the other pros are hitting & he conveys that info to his pro.

Violation?

I think the answer is no since the pro didn't ask & the pro hitting the shot didn't offer it up. The info was gleaned thru other methods.

I'm not trying to be difficult. I get the spirit of the rule - in order to protect the field, you can't give advice to a fellow competitor. Understood. Creates an unfair advantage. It's just a rule loaded with nuances.

Violation? Yes. See Dec 14-3/16:

However, examples of uses of an electronic device during a stipulated round that are a breach of Rule 14-3 , for which the penalty is disqualification, include:

· Using the device (e.g., a television or radio) to watch or listen to a broadcast of the competition being played;

Spirit if the Rule is very clear: do not ask or give advice. Overhearing things is one thing, yelling out what club you are using in order to make others to hear it is another.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Let's say, in a tournament, a pro is standing next to Feherty. The first guy picks his club, caddy signals to Feherty it's a 6-iron. Pro hears Feherty say 'He's hitting 6 iron'.

Shorty covered the rule 14 violation, but I don't see that there's much of a wrinkle here (I don't mean this to be a criticism of your post, btw). You're not allowed to ask for or give advice. You are allowed to gather any information you're exposed to through means not covered by the rules. So you are free to tell a non-competitor what club you're using, and he's allowed to shout it as loudly as he wants. You're also allowed to make an effort to determine what club your opponent used (not including rifling through his bag), so this isn't that far afield.

The only way this would be a violation is if you agreed to do this in order to sidestep the rules. Due to Equity, you'd probably be penalized for giving advice in those circumstances.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by joekelly

How about this: no one asks and i am not suggesting to you but for the world at large to hear on the 3rd tee i holler out " i have in my hand the eight iron".   Seems like  that would be OK, since this is not a suggestion nor advice but only a statement of my intent.  Consider also this: on the tee box, before i hit the ball i elevate the ball off the turf onto a small wooden peg and you see me do that and ask me 'is that a wooden peg, joe?'  Ooops, that may be advice as it may influence you since you only carry plastic pegs!!  Sometimes these Rules seem a bit looney.

People who makes posts like this seem a bit looney.  Mostly because they have nothing to do with the topic at hand.  If you holler with the intent of influencing another player's club choice or to otherwise affect his stroke, then yes, you are in breach.  If you are hollering just hear yourself make noise, then you are just another inconsiderate golfer.

The rules don't give a rat's behind what kind of tees you use as long as they fit the definition in the book.  And the material they are made from can't possibly be construed by any sane person to have an effect on another player's stroke.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The rules don't give a rat's behind what kind of tees you use as long as they fit the definition in the book.  And the material they are made from can't possibly be construed by any sane person to have an effect on another player's stroke.

While I agree, I think the rules would still disallow making that decision based on advice. (Also, I believe the marketing departments at some of the tee manufacturers would ask that you kindly refrain from questioning their space-age product technologies!)

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by zeg

While I agree, I think the rules would still disallow making that decision based on advice. (Also, I believe the marketing departments at some of the tee manufacturers would ask that you kindly refrain from questioning their space-age product technologies!)

Actually that isn't true.  Nothing in Rule 8 says that you can't accept or act on advice freely given, no matter where it came from.  You can't ask for advice, and you can't offer advice, but you can receive it without penalty if it's unsolicited.  The player receiving unsolicited advice could act on it, hole out his next shot, and the rules don't care.  His opponent or fellow competitor would have to take loss of hole or a two stroke penalty for his error.

I'd be willing to bet you be hard pressed to find a good rules official who would consider a discussion about material or construction of a tee as advice, unless that discussion influenced how the player teed his ball for the next shot.  Where such a discussion could become advice is if the player went on to suggest to his fellow competitor how high to tee the ball, or where on the tee box to tee the ball for a better angle on his shot.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Actually that isn't true.  Nothing in Rule 8 says that you can't accept or act on advice freely given, no matter where it came from.  You can't ask for advice, and you can't offer advice, but you can receive it without penalty if it's unsolicited.  The player receiving unsolicited advice could act on it, hole out his next shot, and the rules don't care.  His opponent or fellow competitor would have to take loss of hole or a two stroke penalty for his error.

I'd be willing to bet you be hard pressed to find a good rules official who would consider a discussion about material or construction of a tee as advice, unless that discussion influenced how the player teed his ball for the next shot.  Where such a discussion could become advice is if the player went on to suggest to his fellow competitor how high to tee the ball, or where on the tee box to tee the ball for a better angle on his shot.

Sorry, yes you're right. However, I had in mind the (silly, I fully admit) case where someone asks what sort of tee is being used with the specific purpose of choosing which of his own tees to use. Since I agree that a sensible observer or official would not raise an issue with a question about materials, I'm assuming also that the player is being quite clear about his intention:

"Hey Bob, I'm not sure whether to use my zero-friction plastic tee or my beat-up old wooden tee on this one, I think I get better contact when I use the wood but I'm pretty sure I get less sidespin with the plastic. Which tee are you using?"

It's silly and contrived, but I believe it illustrates the basic point that if you're asking a fellow competitor a question in order to help make your own decision, that's disallowed. It's not a particularly good illustration of that point, but what else are we to discuss in the rules forum beyond minutiae?

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Actually that isn't true.  Nothing in Rule 8 says that you can't accept or act on advice freely given, no matter where it came from.  You can't ask for advice, and you can't offer advice, but you can receive it without penalty if it's unsolicited.

8-1/24 Advice Given by Team Coach or Captain

Q. A team competition is being played, and in the conditions the Committee has not authorised captains or coaches to give advice under the Note to Rule 8. A non-playing coach or captain gives advice during a round to one of the members of his team. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty. However, the player should take action to stop this irregular procedure. If he does not do so, he should, in equity (Rule 1-4), incur a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play in view of the purpose of Rule 8-1.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

8-1/24 Advice Given by Team Coach or Captain

Q. A team competition is being played, and in the conditions the Committee has not authorised captains or coaches to give advice under the Note to Rule 8. A non-playing coach or captain gives advice during a round to one of the members of his team. What is the ruling?

A. There is no penalty. However, the player should take action to stop this irregular procedure. If he does not do so, he should, in equity (Rule 1-4), incur a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke play in view of the purpose of Rule 8-1.

This doesn't refute what I said.  It just expands on the subject for a specific situation.  And there still is no penalty unless the offense is repeated.