Jump to content
IGNORED

Advice or fact?


joekelly
Note: This thread is 4398 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Recommended Posts

I know asking for or giving 'advice' on playing a shot is forbidden. But inquiring about certain facts is OK, such as yardage, location of hazards, etc.  If i ask my fellow competitor, prior to my shot, which club he plans to use or  did use, i think  that is not OK. But if we each have  played our shot to the par 3  green, then may i  ask him which club he used?   Seems to me that this falls into the 'fact' category and is OK.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Counsel or suggestion that could affect how you play the shot or which club you use for the shot is advice, [i]unless[/i] it is public information. "It's 215 yards from here to the center of the green" is not advice. "I would hit a 6-iron" is advice -- however, if he leaves his bag unguarded, and you can, without touching anything, figure out which club is missing, that's legal. If he puts a towel over it to keep you from doing so, you can't move it. However, if after he hits his shot, and you have yet to play yours, he sees me (and I'm not in your group, perhaps not even playing), he can say to me "Hey Shindig: did you see that awesome 6-iron shot?" -- even if he knows you'll overhear it. Of course, even if he doesn't intend something to be advice, it can be. A few years ago, Greg Chalmers had an issue when his fellow competitor's caddie kept poking around in his (Greg's) bag. Chalmers hit a poor shot and turned around and yelled to the caddie and yelled something like "it was a six-iron, okay?". Oops, that's advice under the rules, and later in the tournament, Chalmers DQ'd himself after realizing what he'd done. Had he called out to the spectators instead, saying "Man, what a poor 6-iron shot that was!", he'd have been fine. Once the information cannot affect your shot, I believe you can ask what club it was; for example, if you and I both hit our shots towards a par-3 green, I think you can ask me what I hit off the tee. Just to be safe, though, I tend to wait until after the round; the people I would ask are inclined to remember what they hit anyway.

-- Michael | My swing! 

"You think you're Jim Furyk. That's why your phone is never charged." - message from my mother

Driver:  Titleist 915D2.  4-wood:  Titleist 917F2.  Titleist TS2 19 degree hybrid.  Another hybrid in here too.  Irons 5-U, Ping G400.  Wedges negotiable (currently 54 degree Cleveland, 58 degree Titleist) Edel putter. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades



Originally Posted by joekelly

. But if we each have  played our shot to the par 3  green, then may i  ask him which club he used?   Seems to me that this falls into the 'fact' category and is OK.


Hi joekelly,

It's Ok.  There are a couple of decisons on this. Here's one.

8-1/7

After Player Has Played to Green He Asks Opponent Or Felow-Competitor What Club He Used In Playing to Green.

Q. A plays his second shot which lands on the green.  B does likewise.  A then asks B what Club he used for  his second shot.  Was A in Breach of Rule 8-1.

A. No

Regards,

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades



Originally Posted by Shindig

However, if after he hits his shot, and you have yet to play yours, he sees me (and I'm not in your group, perhaps not even playing), he can say to me "Hey Shindig: did you see that awesome 6-iron shot?" -- even if he knows you'll overhear it.


This is true, but be aware of the following decision:

8-1/9

Misleading Statement About Club Selection

Q. A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?

A. A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.

In the bag:
FT-iQ 10° driver, FT 21° neutral 3H
T-Zoid Forged 15° 3W, MX-23 4-PW
Harmonized 52° GW, Tom Watson 56° SW, X-Forged Vintage 60° LW
White Hot XG #1 Putter, 33"

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Interestingly enough, during suspension of play you may also ask things you would be penalized for during a stipulated round:

8-1/20

Asking Advice When Play Suspended

Q. A is about to play the 6th hole, a par-3, when play is suspended by the Committee. Prior to the resumption of play, A asks X, who had already played the 6th, what club he used for his tee shot. Is A penalized under Rule 8-1 ?

A. No. The prohibition against giving or asking for advice applies only during a stipulated round. In this case, the stipulated round had been suspended.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


What I have wondered about is, what if I freely offer up the information?

Let's say I hit first on a par-3 & after the shot I say, oooh I caught that 6-iron good. Did I violate a rule?

Anyway, I've seen how pros handle this. I've even seen Nicklaus do this - when a guy hits a shot, oftentimes he makes eye contact with the other guy in the group that hasn't hit yet & the first player will lift his club up so the other guy can see the number on the sole. All non-verbal.

And, of course, during telecasts the caddies 'communicate' to the Fehertys following the group what club the pro hit thru hand signals - one finger is 1 or 6 iron, 2 fingers is 2 or 7, and so on. All the other players have to do is watch the caddy.

That's why, ultimately, I think it's a dumb rule. There's many ways around it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Interesting.

I have a question also. Say after the tee shot on the par 3, my compeitor asks me what he did wrong on his swing, not the shot. Can I give advice on his swing on that particular shot?

Driver: Callaway Big Bertha 10.5* 

3WD:  Callaway Big Bertha 15* / X2 Hot H4 Hybrid
Irons:  Callaway Apex 4-PW Project X 5.5 shafts

Wedges: Callaway MackDaddy 2  52/58
Putter: Odyessey Metal X Milled 1

Link to comment
Share on other sites




Originally Posted by zeg

This is true, but be aware of the following decision:

8-1/9

Misleading Statement About Club Selection

Q.A made a statement regarding his club selection which was purposely misleading and was obviously intended to be overheard by B, who had a similar shot. What is the ruling?

A.A was in breach of Rule 8-1 and lost the hole in match play or incurred a two-stroke penalty in stroke play.



Obviously, asking for or giving advice should be against the rules in stroke play because you have to keep it fair for all of the other players in the tournament that aren't in your group.  But why would either be against the rules in match play?  The guy is your only opponent, if you want to help him, who is it hurting besides you?  There is no field to protect.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades



Originally Posted by zipazoid

What I have wondered about is, what if I freely offer up the information?

Let's say I hit first on a par-3 & after the shot I say, oooh I caught that 6-iron good. Did I violate a rule?

It depends. If that was only a casual remark on enthusiasm you get no penalty. But if you wanted the others to know that you hit with 6-iron instead of any other club you get 2 penalties.

8-1/8

Comment About Club Selection After Stroke

Q. After playing a stroke, a player says: "I should have used a 5iron." Was the player in breach of Rule 8-1 ?

A. If the statement was made casually, there was no breach. If the statement was made to another player who had a shot to play from about the same position, there was a breach.

Link to comment
Share on other sites




Originally Posted by Motley01

Interesting.

I have a question also. Say after the tee shot on the par 3, my compeitor asks me what he did wrong on his swing, not the shot. Can I give advice on his swing on that particular shot?


Your fellow-competitor gets a 2 shot penalty for asking for an advice. If you give him that advice you will be penalized as well. See a similar example:

8-1/13

Player Giving Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Instruction During Round

Q. During a round a player tells an opponent or a fellow-competitor that he is overswinging. Is this giving advice in breach of Rule 8-1 ?

A. Yes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites




Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Obviously, asking for or giving advice should be against the rules in stroke play because you have to keep it fair for all of the other players in the tournament that aren't in your group.  But why would either be against the rules in match play?  The guy is your only opponent, if you want to help him, who is it hurting besides you?  There is no field to protect.



You are partially right and in match play a player has the option of disregarding his opponent's breach. However, if the players in a match agree that they may ask and give advice freely during the match they will both be disqualified for breach of Rule 1-3 (agreement to waive a Rule).

Link to comment
Share on other sites




Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Obviously, asking for or giving advice should be against the rules in stroke play because you have to keep it fair for all of the other players in the tournament that aren't in your group.  But why would either be against the rules in match play?  The guy is your only opponent, if you want to help him, who is it hurting besides you?  There is no field to protect.


In addition to what Ignorant said, note that 8-1/17 is referring to a misleading statement intended to be overheard by your opponent. That decision isn't dealing with help, it's dealing with deception.

In the bag:
FT-iQ 10° driver, FT 21° neutral 3H
T-Zoid Forged 15° 3W, MX-23 4-PW
Harmonized 52° GW, Tom Watson 56° SW, X-Forged Vintage 60° LW
White Hot XG #1 Putter, 33"

Link to comment
Share on other sites




Originally Posted by zipazoid

Anyway, I've seen how pros handle this. I've even seen Nicklaus do this - when a guy hits a shot, oftentimes he makes eye contact with the other guy in the group that hasn't hit yet & the first player will lift his club up so the other guy can see the number on the sole. All non-verbal.

And, of course, during telecasts the caddies 'communicate' to the Fehertys following the group what club the pro hit thru hand signals - one finger is 1 or 6 iron, 2 fingers is 2 or 7, and so on. All the other players have to do is watch the caddy.

That's why, ultimately, I think it's a dumb rule. There's many ways around it.



What you are describing there is clearly against the Rules and taking into account the pro players' integrity I am more than astonished if it is true.

But remember, it is perfecty allowed to look at the other players club or bag if this takes place with no physical act, i.e. you are not allowed to touch any of the other player's equipment. However, making an eye contact with a F-C and deliberately showing him the club leaves no doubt, it is a breach of R8-1.

Link to comment
Share on other sites




Originally Posted by Ignorant

What you are describing there is clearly against the Rules and taking into account the pro players' integrity I am more than astonished if it is true.


I've seen it. Often. Even saw Jack do it once.

Link to comment
Share on other sites




Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Obviously, asking for or giving advice should be against the rules in stroke play because you have to keep it fair for all of the other players in the tournament that aren't in your group.  But why would either be against the rules in match play?  The guy is your only opponent, if you want to help him, who is it hurting besides you?  There is no field to protect.


At first blush it might seem reasonable, but if you followed the logic that what's the difference, I'm not hurting the field, then where would you draw the line?  You could use the same logic with about any rule.  Then you are no longer playing by the rules of golf.  Then you'd have opponents basically playing matches by their own rules.  Then if you have a dispute and file a claim against your opponent, how does the committee decide if players weren't following the rules.  Gets ugly.

Plus if both players are agreeing to break the rules, they are in Breach of 1-3 Agreement to Waive Rules.  I wouldn't want to apply that rule only to stroke play.

FYI,  in your example in match play you immediately lost the hole as soon as you gave advice. If your opponent asked for advice first, he lost the hole as soon as he asked.

Regards,

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades



Originally Posted by Dormie1360

At first blush it might seem reasonable, but if you followed the logic that what's the difference, I'm not hurting the field, then where would you draw the line?  You could use the same logic with about any rule.  Then you are no longer playing by the rules of golf.  Then you'd have opponents basically playing matches by their own rules.  Then if you have a dispute and file a claim against your opponent, how does the committee decide if players weren't following the rules.  Gets ugly.



Yes, that would create a mess if they were allowed to play the whole match by their own rules.  But I am only talking about this one rule.  And I'm not suggesting that they should be allowed to ignore the rule, but rather that it shouldn't be a rule at all.  Seems to me like it would fall in the same category as gimme putts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

You may give advise to your partner, right?

On our buddy trips, we played an all-week-individual low net game, a cart-against-cart game, and a 4-some-against-all other 4-somes game each round. All games at the same time. So, everyone you were playing with was your competitor and your partner at the same time. Advise was asked for and given. The 4-some matches mattered.

Russ - Student of the Moe Norman swing as taught by the pros at - http://moenormangolf.com

Titleist 910 D3 8.5* w/ Project X shaft/ Titleist 910F 15* w/ Project X shaft

Cobra Baffler 20* & 23* hybrids with Accra hybrid shafts

Mizuno MP-53 irons 5Iron-PW AeroTech i95 shafts stiff and soft stepped once/Mizuno MP T-11 50.6/56.10/MP T10 60*

Seemore PCB putter with SuperStroke 3.0

Srixon 2012 Z-Star yellow balls/ Iomic Sticky 2.3, X-Evolution grips/Titleist Lightweight Cart Bag---

extra/alternate clubs: Mizunos JPX-800 Pro 5-GW with Project X 5.0 soft-stepped shafts

Link to comment
Share on other sites




Originally Posted by rustyredcab

You may give advise to your partner, right?

On our buddy trips, we played an all-week-individual low net game, a cart-against-cart game, and a 4-some-against-all other 4-somes game each round. All games at the same time. So, everyone you were playing with was your competitor and your partner at the same time. Advise was asked for and given. The 4-some matches mattered.


No you can't. Not when they are your opponent as well.

BUT>>>>>>>

No one is going to care if you give advice to others players in a social competition like yours, though.

It's probably one of the most frequently broken rules, even in competition play, but perhaps the one to worry about the least.

If you are giving 6 inch putts in these matches, that is more of a transgression, so I wouldn't be worying about it.

In the race of life, always back self-interest. At least you know it's trying.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites


Note: This thread is 4398 days old. We appreciate that you found this thread instead of starting a new one, but if you plan to post here please make sure it's still relevant. If not, please start a new topic. Thank you!

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • TST Partners

    TourStriker PlaneMate
    Golfer's Journal
    ShotScope
    The Stack System
    FlightScope Mevo
    Direct: Mevo, Mevo+, and Pro Package.

    Coupon Codes (save 10-15%): "IACAS" for Mevo/Stack, "IACASPLUS" for Mevo+/Pro Package, and "THESANDTRAP" for ShotScope.
  • Posts

    • I did read the fine print tonight. It said replace with “similar features & function”.  8 yeas ago my purchase had features that today are available on the lower end models and the current version of my model has more “bells & whistles” than what I got 8 years ago.  So I am thinking they honored the agreement and I can’t argue the offer. since getting a credit for the full purchase price all I am really out over the past 8 years was the cost of the extended warranty, which was less than a low end  treadmill would have cost me. now the question is which model to replace with.  I’ll stay with Nordic Track or I forfeit the $1,463 credit so I will get Nordic Track.  And they honored the warranty and were not hard to work with which is a plus.
    • Generally speaking, extended warranties are a terrible deal and should almost always be avoided. They are a huge profit center for the companies that offer them, which should tell you almost everything you need to know about how much value most consumers get when purchasing them.  This is correct, and the old adage applies - only buy insurance when you can't afford the loss. This usually doesn't apply to most consumer goods.  To your second question, no I don't believe the offer is fair. They are replacing it, but it is not being replaced at "no cost to you". Since the amount being disputed (over $500) is non-trivial, I would probably push the issue. Don't waste your time on the phone with a customer service agent or a supervisor. They have probably given you all they have the authority to do. Rather, I would look at the terms of your agreement and specifically legal disputes. The odds are you probably agreed to binding arbitration in the event of a dispute. The agreement will outline what steps need to be followed, but it will probably look something like this.  1. Mail the Nordic Track legal department outlining your dispute and indicate you are not satisfied with the resolution offered.  2. Open up a case with the AAA (American Arbitration Association), along with the required documentation. 3. Wait about 4-5 weeks for a case to be opened - at which point someone from Nordic Track's legal department will offer to give you the new model at no cost to you.  They certainly don't want to spend the time and energy to fight you over $500. 4. Enjoy your new Nordic Track at no cost to you. I recently entered binding arbitration against a fairly large and well known company that screwed me over and refused to make it right. In my demand letter, I made a pretty sizeable request that included compensation for my time and frustration. Once it hit their legal department, they cut me a check - no questions asked. It was far cheaper to settle with me than to send their legal team to defend them in the arbitration.
    • I never thought of looking at it on multiple purchases like you said.  Yes, the extended may help me on 1 or 2 items but not the other 5 or 6.
    • Day 84 - Forgot to post yesterday, but I did some more chipping/pitching.    Back/neck were feeling better today, so I did a much overdue Stack session. 
    • Wordle 1,013 4/6 ⬛⬛🟩🟨⬛ 🟩⬛🟩⬛🟨 🟩🟩🟩⬛⬛ 🟩🟩🟩🟩🟩
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Welcome to TST! Signing up is free, and you'll see fewer ads and can talk with fellow golf enthusiasts! By using TST, you agree to our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy, and our Guidelines.

The popup will be closed in 10 seconds...