2012 Arnold Palmer Invitational Discussion Thread

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

I 100% agree with you!   I don't feel that competition is any stronger than it was before.   I feel its just something the media says to build a storyline other than Tiger Woods kicking everyone's ass.  He was basically gone for 2 years...so the media had to push these other guys....mainly the golf channel cuz they didn't have anything else to talk about.  And like I have said before...these guys were still blowing it in majors while he was gone...ie Dustin Johnson, Villegas and so on...    I don't think DJ, jason Day, or guys like that will have careers that will even come close to stacking up to Phil, Vijay or Ernie...not a chance.   And that isn't because it is more competitive now...its because a certain guy named Tiger Woods is on his way back...and another guy named Rory is gonna make it even harder on them.  The "Phils, Vijays and Ernies" will be guys like Rory, Schwartzel, Bradley...  Rory is a few notches above those I just listed and will probably get to 7-10 majors by the time he is done...who knows maybe more.  Most of them aren't that young.

7-10 majors? I like Rory and he's young and very good but that's Hogan, Watson, Player territory.

[brocks]

7-10 majors? I like Rory and he's young and very good but that's Hogan, Watson, Player territory.

Yup, and it's a lot harder to win a major now than it was in their day. Up to about 1980, majors were the biggest events of the year, but they were nothing like the life-changing events they are today. Today, all the top players build their schedules around the majors --- they try to peak for them, they scout out the venues months in advance, and they play practice rounds at the sites weeks in advance. Heck, Phil is even blowing off the Shell Houston Pro-Am tomorrow, so he can play three days at Augusta this week. Before the mid 70's at the latest, the only guy who put that kind of preparation into the majors was Jack. Most Americans didn't even bother to play the British Open, and most foreign players didn't play the PGA. There was a stretch of over 30 years --- from the 1947 PGA to the 1979 PGA --- when only two foreign players won any of the three majors played in the US. Tony Jacklin won one, and Gary Player won six. Seven majors in over 30 years. In contrast, we've had 8 US majors won by foreign players just since 2008 (plus three British Opens, which now, obviously, attracts all the top American players). There is just no comparison to the competition in the Tiger era to the competition in the Jack era. I don't think it's outrageous to say it's at least twice as hard to win a major this century as it was before 1980, so Phil, Ernie, and Vijay are on a par with Palmer, Trevino, and Watson. And of course, Tiger is in a class by himself.

[jhwmusic]

7-10 majors? I like Rory and he's young and very good but that's Hogan, Watson, Player territory.

] So what? THere has to be another Watson, Hogan and Player to come along some day. Who else would say would even have a chance? It is just my opinion that he has is the only person who has a chance. He's winning tourmaments at the same pace Tiger was at his age. I am not saying that he will break Nicklaus or Tiger's record but if anyone has a chance to even come close, it's rory. You can't possibly think that nobody will ever achieve Watson status ever again. Nicklaus and Tiger is one thing...but Watson and Hogan? If it wasn't for his last round at Augusta, he might have two already. I say might because I'm relistic in saying the loss at Augusta may have fueled his win at the US Open. It's just my opinion. You have yours and I have mine. I don't think that I am alone in speaking so highly of Rory's potential.

[BruceMGF]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

]

It's just my opinion. You have yours and I have mine. I don't think that I am alone in speaking so highly of Rory's potential.

Maybe he'll do it, but it seems people are trying really hard to force themselves to believe it, maybe because he seems to be personally appealing.  I mean, he has as many majors as Martin Kaymer and wasn't #1 as long as Kaymer, but nobody's predicting a Kaymer Era.

We're still waiting for the Michelle Wie Era, too.  Any day now.

(And I'll admit I had my doubts about Tiger when he was winning all those US Amateurs.  "This dude can't keep it in the fairway!  How's he going to win a US Open?  How?"  So I'm not putting my foot down and saying Rory is going to be a bust.  But fans seem to be trying really, really hard to believe he's the Second Coming.)

[mtsalmela80]

Well take comfort in the fact that even if Rory wins 20 majors, he will never be as popular as Tiger is outside of the hardcore golf community.

Originally Posted by BruceMGF

Maybe he'll do it, but it seems people are trying really hard to force themselves to believe it, maybe because he seems to be personally appealing.  I mean, he has as many majors as Martin Kaymer and wasn't #1 as long as Kaymer, but nobody's predicting a Kaymer Era.

We're still waiting for the Michelle Wie Era, too.  Any day now.

(And I'll admit I had my doubts about Tiger when he was winning all those US Amateurs.  "This dude can't keep it in the fairway!  How's he going to win a US Open?  How?"  So I'm not putting my foot down and saying Rory is going to be a bust.  But fans seem to be trying really, really hard to believe he's the Second Coming.)

[MSchott]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

]

So what? THere has to be another Watson, Hogan and Player to come along some day. Who else would say would even have a chance? It is just my opinion that he has is the only person who has a chance. He's winning tourmaments at the same pace Tiger was at his age. I am not saying that he will break Nicklaus or Tiger's record but if anyone has a chance to even come close, it's rory. You can't possibly think that nobody will ever achieve Watson status ever again. Nicklaus and Tiger is one thing...but Watson and Hogan? If it wasn't for his last round at Augusta, he might have two already. I say might because I'm relistic in saying the loss at Augusta may have fueled his win at the US Open.

It's just my opinion. You have yours and I have mine. I don't think that I am alone in speaking so highly of Rory's potential.

He may have the potential but it's early to make as positive a prediction as you made. You said 7-10 majors, maybe more. You are putting him at a higher level than any golfer ever except Jack and Tiger.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

He's winning tourmaments at the same pace Tiger was at his age.

Same pace?  Is that just going by sheer # of wins at the same age?

Brandon

[jhwmusic]

Same pace?  Is that just going by sheer # of wins at the same age?

Brandon

Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. He has wins worldwide that stack up to exactly what Tiger was doing at his age. I am not saying he will be Tiger. I just feel he has the "potential" to win 7-10 majors. Just because I said he has the potential doesn't mean he is going to for sure do it. Some thought David Duval was going to challenge Tiger for years and years and we all know what happened there. I just feel that Rory has an all around game far beyond all his peers. What have the other recent #1's done? Luke and Lee haven't done s#$t and I don't see that changing. Luke is wild off the tee and short...that doesn't work in the majors. Major Courses are way too penalizing for his short game to keep saving him. I like Luke but I don't see him winning more than 1...if any at all. If he does, he will have to have 4 fluke driving days to do it. And as for Lee...Well, he's Lee. [quote name="MSchott" url="/t/56505/2012-arnold-palmer-invitational-discussion-thread/270#post_693508"]

He may have the potential but it's early to make as positive a prediction as you made. You said 7-10 majors, maybe more. You are putting him at a higher level than any golfer ever except Jack and Tiger.

[/quote] Isn't that the point of making a prediction? And like I said, it is my opinion!!...you can have yours and I can have mine. I personally see greatness in him...you don't have to if you don't want to. I just strongly believe he has significantly more "potential" than any of his peers. You guys are calling me out on my opinion but nobody seems to answer my question. Do you guys honestly think there will never be another Tom Watson or Ben Hogan, who wins 7+ majors? records are made to be broken...its what happens in every sport. And 7+ majors isn't even a record. Once again, I didn't say he was going to be jack or Tiger....I just feel that given his age, talent and killer instinct to win and be the best, he has a better chance at making a run towards the 7+ than anyone else out there...he isn't scared to win like the rest of these guys...and more importantly he knows he can hang with Tiger on any given day. I can not say that about any other golfer on the planet. I don't feel many of his peers have the nuts to do what he does. Most guys would disappear after what happened to him at augusta. But he picked himself up and completely destroyed a really tough golf course! What is that a sign of? To me that is what makes the greats! Watson was known as a choker and then what happened? Sometimes I feel like some of you guys read the first two sentences of a post and just respond without reading it through. A lot of people have to keep repeating themselves and reexplaining what they have already said over and over and over.

[jhwmusic]

Well take comfort in the fact that even if Rory wins 20 majors, he will never be as popular as Tiger is outside of the hardcore golf community.

Agreed. And that is for the same reason Kobe Bryant, Lebron James and so on aren't and will never be as popular as Michael Jordan...no matter how many championships they win. Michael and Tiger changed the way their sports were played, marketed and received by the general public...Nobody had ever seen anything like it. Much like how there was no such thing as a basketball player having his own shoes before MJ, there wasn't a golfer who had marketing campaign behind him like Tiger did. They can both thank Phil Knight for that and Phil Knight's wallet can thank them right back. Not to mention Tiger isn't some rich white kid who grew up at the country club without a care in the world and had everything handed to him. He didn't grow up in the ghetto by any means but he had to work and fight to be who is. There will NEVER be anyone like MJ or Tiger. At least not in our lifetimes. Just like there will never be another Muhammad Ali.... or Jackie Chan! ha

[jhwmusic]

Same pace?  Is that just going by sheer # of wins at the same age?

Brandon

And sorry to be a smart ass, but what else would it mean? Number of chicks he's slept with?

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

And sorry to be a smart ass, but what else would it mean? Number of chicks he's slept with?

Well, you used the word "pace" despite Rory being a professional since, like what 2008?  Tiger had 7 wins in his 2nd professional season I believe.  That's not quite the same pace unless you define pace solely in terms of age, and not in terms of length of career.

Am I way off here?

Brandon

[jhwmusic]

Well, you used the word "pace" despite Rory being a professional since, like what 2008?  Tiger had 7 wins in his 2nd professional season I believe.  That's not quite the same pace unless you define pace solely in terms of age, and not in terms of length of career.

Am I way off here?

Brandon

No, I guess I see what you are saying...but they are pretty close. I was referring to overall performance at Rory's current age...rory turned pro earlier so I get what you are saying. Sorry for the sarcasm.

[brocks]

[Rory] has wins worldwide that stack up to exactly what Tiger was doing at his age. ... A lot of people have to keep repeating themselves and reexplaining what they have already said over and over and over.

I know how you feel, because I posted this in the Masters thread just yesterday: "If I've counted right, the good news is that Rory needs only three more wins in the next five weeks (his 23rd birthday is May 4) to keep up with Tiger's pace (nine sanctioned wins by age 23). The bad news is that he needs nine additional wins while he's 23, and another ten while he's 24. And four of those 22 wins have to be majors --- preferably four different majors, so he has a career Grand Slam. If he does that, I'll be impressed."

[jhwmusic]

I know how you feel, because I posted this in the Masters thread just yesterday: "If I've counted right, the good news is that Rory needs only three more wins in the next five weeks (his 23rd birthday is May 4) to keep up with Tiger's pace (nine sanctioned wins by age 23). The bad news is that he needs nine additional wins while he's 23, and another ten while he's 24. And four of those 22 wins have to be majors --- preferably four different majors, so he has a career Grand Slam. If he does that, I'll be impressed."

Yeah, I saw that post and I think I responded agreeing with you. That would be very impressive if he even came close to that, but I'm not even saying he is gonna do what tiger did. I am just sick of the doubters on this page. According to some of these guys on this page, there could never be another player from now until the end of time who could ever be classified as one of the "All time greats." If that is the case, professional golf is gonna suck for the next 20 years. Because every sport needs dominance or at least a few players that stand above the rest. These people drive me nuts! Do they understand how sports work? Records are to be broken or at least challenged...that's just what happens.

[Wansteadimp]

Rory has also blown tournaments he should have won, Dubai, in Switzerland, Hong Kong in 2010, not to mention Augusta. Most of those are several years ago and he was young etc but I can't remember Tiger having to "learn how to win".

There won't be another Tiger anytime soon, there have been very few Watsons and Hogans. People with the careers of Ernie, Vijay, Phil etc etc are the norm. Tiger and Jack are the abnormal times.

[Wansteadimp]

Originally Posted by jhwmusic

Do they understand how sports work?

Sorry, I didn't get the message, I thought sport was about close contests that anyone could win coming down to the last hole/second rather than a Sunday afternoon stroll to the coronation of the next greatest of all time ever.

There was no dominant player between Jack and Tiger and I seem to remember the majors being superb on a regular basis. Not knowing what was going to happen, looking back I should have known Monty wasn't going to win but thats another thing.

[jhwmusic]

Rory has also blown tournaments he should have won, Dubai, in Switzerland, Hong Kong in 2010, not to mention Augusta. Most of those are several years ago and he was young etc but I can't remember Tiger having to "learn how to win".

There won't be another Tiger anytime soon, there have been very few Watsons and Hogans. People with the careers of Ernie, Vijay, Phil etc etc are the norm. Tiger and Jack are the abnormal times.

He's 23 Years old!! Watson was a choker for a while too and what did he do? He's young! And for the 500th time, nobody is saying he is Tiger! Rory has the game to win more majors than Ernie and Vijay combined.

[Yukari]

I see some people have a different definition of "pace" than what I would consider to be.  My definition is the ratio of number of events won compared to the number of events entered.  Others, however, seems to feel number of wins at a given age is the definition.

To compare the "greatness", if you will, I think you need to compare the ratio of wins per tournaments entered.  In that sense, while I am a huge fan of Rory, he is not in the same league as Tiger.  Tiger just set the expectation of wins per tournaments entered astronomically high for any mere mortals to achieve.

Unfortunately, as talented as Rory is, he will never achieve the same greatness as Tiger.

Just my 2 cents.