Stack & Tilt are capitalising on Robert Rock's popularity

[MiniBlueDragon]

OK I'm fully prepared to be corrected here so feel free to. If I'm correct:

- S&T; is a single 'pattern' golf swing.

- MORAD is a collection of golf swing patterns.

- S&T; is based on MORAD.

- Robert Rock has a MORAD golf swing.

- S&T; have (indirectly) decided that Robert Rock has as close to a perfect S&T; swing as possible.

If the above is true that suggests to me that either:

- Robert Rock is swinging in the S&T; pattern but because his coach is a MORAD coach nobody will admit it.

- Robert Rock is swinging in the S&T; pattern but S&T; is a dirty phrase and so anybody using it can't possibly win tournaments, therefore he has a MORAD swing.

- S&T; have decided to capitalise on Robert's massive popularity and are using him to improve people's opinion on S&T.;

- S&T; has changed and chosen a different MORAD pattern as their new model and Robert happens to use that same pattern.
- Other.

What say you good TST people?

p.s. The thread title is deliberately controversial and does not reflect my personal views on the subject.

[Mr. Desmond]

Odd, I don't see Robert Rock mentioned at the stackandtiltgolfswing.com website.

Soooo... I'm trying to see your point. Where do the S&T people claim Rock as their own? Great hair, though. I'd like to claim his hair for mine.

[uttexas]

I'd say S&T is a system, not one specific pattern. S&T allows for variations of degrees and rates. Thus, you can have an S&T golf swing that looks like Troy Matteson, Charles Howell III, or Charlie Wi. On the original S&T DVD series, the last DVD has Mike Bennett hitting all sort of shot shapes with S&T by changing ball position and/or degrees/rates. The media has a limited knowledge of S&T, so they tend to simplify and generalize, while at the same time exaggerating small details. People like to mark territory. Some ways to do this are to label,categorize, include/exclude. Yes, the general perception of S&T is that it is rigid/inflexable, but systems evolve with knowledge and experience. Robert Rock and the vast majority of tour players exhibit swing characteristics that are S&T fundamentals--which is inherent to the system. S&T was derived by analyzing what the best golfers do. Thus, most professional golfers exhibit most or all of the S&T fundamentals.

[Zeph]

I think this topic has been discussed to death before and frankly don't see the point, but OK. Rock's swing got a lot of the S&T components, that is all. It's not about who's camp he is in, it's about what his swing looks like. Kind of like Tiger. Sean won't say Tiger is doing S&T, but Tiger is doing a lot of the moves S&T teach. People can call their swing what they like, it does not matter out on the course. The fans are more concerned about this topic than the players and instructors. Though we can safely say they aren't generally too happy about being compared to S&T for some reason. It's like comparing your swing to Ben Hogan. Since when was that not a compliment? Actually, erey golfer on the PGA Tour do parts of the S&T pattern. Some more than others. Rock happens to be one of the guys with a swing very similar to the basic S&T pattern. Which should not come as a surprise, seeing as the pattern is derived from the swings of the best players through the history. Nicklaus, Hogan, Snead, Faldo, Tiger, etc.

[michaeljames92]

He's just been doing some work with Grant Waite and Joe Mayo. I think Rocky primarily hits a cut too, so obviously doesn't hit the stock push draw...

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Zeph

. . . People can call their swing what they like, it does not matter out on the course. The fans are more concerned about this topic than the players and instructors. Though we can safely say they aren't generally too happy about being compared to S&T for some reason. It's like comparing your swing to Ben Hogan. Since when was that not a compliment?

I suspect it's the other way around. Casual fans don't really pay attention to who coaches whom beyond the pages of Golf Digest. Avid fans who follow everything are more likely to be voice opinions, but I suspect they forget about the subject 2 minutes later. The only ones genuinely "concerned" about this topic are 1.) those who derive their living from instruction and 2.) those paying for a certain brand of swing instruction hoping their swing has a similar appearance to whichever player is seen as cool that season, or to Tiger Woods.

[poser]

He is morad all the way...

[MiniBlueDragon]

Sorry if my point wasn't particularly clear guys.

The thread was created to get opinions on Rocky's swing and discuss whether it's more MORAD (based on his coach) or S&T; (based on several S&T; instructors recently mentioning on FaceBook, Twitter etc how fantastic his swing is and that it's pretty much the model for S&T; now).

The natural progression to that discussion is then IF it's classed as a MORAD swing is that because it is or because it's an S&T; swing but S&T; is an evil phrase never to be uttered on air.

IF it's classed as S&T; is it because it is or because S&T; are using Rocky to show the world that it's not some bizarre underground cult swing and actually makes a lot of sense.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

The thread was created to get opinions on Rocky's swing and discuss whether it's more MORAD (based on his coach) or S&T (based on several S&T instructors recently mentioning on FaceBook, Twitter etc how fantastic his swing is and that it's pretty much the model for S&T now).

You can't really separate the two. MORAD is basically one way of swinging the golf club but with about a billion interchangeable little pieces (quite literally some of them are how your eyeline changes throughout the swing and the effects it will have, etc.).

S&T is one very much more focused way of swinging the golf club. It's virtually a single pattern from MORAD without anywhere near as much "interchangeability."

MORAD is like a car maker that that makes roadsters, but lets you customize everything from the size of the tires to the type of rubber used in the tires to the color of the knobs and the LEDs or whatever in the interior, to the color temperature of the headlights, the thread used in the stitching of the leather, etc. At the end of the day it's still one of a few very similar models of a roadster. They'll even offer you several standard packages of all the customizations, but you're free to mix and match even off a base package. S&T is one model of a roadster with a few equipment options: do you want mud flaps, the six-disc changer, the skylight, and a brown leather, black leather, or grey cloth interior?

Of course the S&T crowd is latching on to Rock's swing. It's very close to their model, and people are recently fascinated with his swing. It's close, but he's just got some of the "choices" that are available from the MORAD Auto Company (ha ha, the MAC).

But every golfer, as some people have pointed out, have a lot of the S&T principles in their swing. They're attempting to re-brand themselves a bit as more than one "swing" or "pattern" but it's going to be a tough road to hoe because everything they've ever done says it's "one swing." The domain name, the title of the book, the tagline/slogan "The swing that is remaking golf," etc.

I don't know a ton about MORAD. I've learned a fair amount from current MORAD circle dwellers, former MORAD circle dwellers, etc. But that's where we (Golf Evolution) have always shined, because we've never really taught a single pattern or a single "swing." We may not offer the full complement as the MAC in our line of cars, but we allow a lot more flexibility with certain things than STM (Stack-Tilt Motors). You may not be able to design a flower pattern in your tire treads with 5 Simple Keys® (then again maybe you could), but we offer more than one rim size, if I've not completely exhausted the car analogy yet.

S&T is still a great pattern or swing because it gets people to think about the prioritization and the direct cause-effect of the swing and its geometry. It's one of the best instructional books ever written because it doesn't try to preach "feels" as a way of achieving mechanics, it tells you the mechanics and encourages you to develop your own feels. It's easy to understand and it has good information.

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

The natural progression to that discussion is then IF it's classed as a MORAD swing is that because it is or because it's an S&T swing but S&T is an evil phrase never to be uttered on air.

IF it's classed as S&T is it because it is or because S&T are using Rocky to show the world that it's not some bizarre underground cult swing and actually makes a lot of sense.

Dave and I struggled with this one (not about Rock, but about what I'll say now).

Every PGA Tour player has elements of S&T in it. But how many - and how much of each of those - does one need before they're "S&T"? It's a question you can't really answer. Eventually, I think I realized (I'm not speaking for Dave now, but I suspect he feels similarly) that it's a waste of time. We do know that every PGA Tour player does the 5 Simple Keys®, but classifying the Keys is entirely different than "weight forward, shoulder down, hands in, arms straight, tuck butt."