USGA position on smartphone GPSs

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by turtleback

Why would you think that is more than I wanted.  I LOVE golf history in any form.  Thanks for posting that, as it was not only interesting but it pretty much confirmed my recollections.

Do you have a library of all of the rule books by year?  That would be cool to have.

I recall reading that back in the day the base rule was that if a ball plugged on the green then it was too bad, and that affected strategy, calling for more run up shots when it had been raining and the green was soft.  But sometimes there would be a local rule allowing the ball to be taken out of the plugged position.  I think that came up during the Ouimet/Vardon/Ray US Open.

See this site: Historical rules of golf .  I think you will find it interesting.  I've had it bookmarked for years.

[Mordan]

Originally Posted by moparman426

Where is this non-removable compass app located on Android phones?  I went through every app on mine, and can find no such app unless you are referring to a GPS navigation app.  The only time I can get a north indication to show on that is if I program a route to somewhere.

Turtle, it looks like they fell off the fence in regards to their original position on the subject, which I posted in another thread, even though they generalize everything into "iPhone", which all smartphones certainly are not.  Luckily, my practice course is not rated, so I can't enter scores from rounds played there anyway.  I am still planning on using my golf gps app to track my stats while playing on that particular course though, as 90% of my rounds played are there.

I don't own an Andriod phone so couldn't tell you if they have a non-removable compass or not. A compass is not the only "app" that woud make a phone illegal to use as a DMD, but it is the one that causes the issue for iPhone owners. If an Android phone does not have an "app" or feature that violate the rules for a DMD then of course they can be used.

There's been no fence sitting, and no change of stance, just a lot of misinformation on the subject. The ruling bodies position has remained the same throughout, but while it would have helped avoid a lot of the misinformation if they'd been more specific I can somewhat understand their reluctance due to how quickly things change with technology.

[elementz]

I am still farily new to golf but why in the heck would a compass be illegal....I can't think of any reasons off the top of my head.  Why does it matter if the hole is pointing towards the north, or east, etc?  How does that help a golfer play his shot?

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by elementz

I am still farily new to golf but why in the heck would a compass be illegal....I can't think of any reasons off the top of my head.  Why does it matter if the hole is pointing towards the north, or east, etc?  How does that help a golfer play his shot?

Put the question another way. Why would a player use a compass when playing golf if he didn't think it would help him?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Quote:

Originally Posted by elementz

I am still farily new to golf but why in the heck would a compass be illegal....I can't think of any reasons off the top of my head.  Why does it matter if the hole is pointing towards the north, or east, etc?  How does that help a golfer play his shot?

Put the question another way. Why would a player use a compass when playing golf if he didn't think it would help him?

Putting the question yet another way, why are distances considered public knowledge (or whatever) and okay to discuss among competitors (or find out from a third party?) yet the location / direction of magnetic North is not? I guess as long as the competitors have N/S/E/W marked on their hole diagrams or pin sheets that would be okay.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

Putting the question yet another way, why are distances considered public knowledge (or whatever) and okay to discuss among competitors (or find out from a third party?) yet the location / direction of magnetic North is not? I guess as long as the competitors have N/S/E/W marked on their hole diagrams or pin sheets that would be okay.

Yep.  Just like the fact that the pros can use yardages measured with laser rangefinders with slope, can note that information in a notebook, but can't use the device during a tournament round.

As to the compass, if you know that the forecast is for winds out of the northeast all day, but down in the trees along the course you can't really feel or see the wind, having an accurate direction indicator can definitely help you in planning any shot whose flight takes the ball above the treetops.

[Ignorant]

Coming back from compasses and other stuff to the original issue, here is something R&A; has published around the issue. Worth checking out, although still leaving some grey areas.

http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/2012/March/Distance-Measuring-Devices.aspx?goback=.gde_2377813_member_104886812

[x129]

People think wearing metal bracelets can help them play golf. Should they be banned also?  As far as I know you are allowed to carry a map of the course. Given that figuring out where north is is not super hard. I am betting they were banned because some was annoyed at their partner spending 10mins taking compass readings on the green before putting one day,

Originally Posted by Rulesman

Put the question another way. Why would a player use a compass when playing golf if he didn't think it would help him?

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

Coming back from compasses and other stuff to the original issue, here is something R&A; has published around the issue. Worth checking out, although still leaving some grey areas.

http://www.randa.org/en/RandA/News/News/2012/March/Distance-Measuring-Devices.aspx?goback=.gde_2377813_member_104886812

Wow - they actually made a flowchart to explain this.  And yet they still have failed to grasp the state of current technology, IMO.

According to the flow chart, it's ok for the device to " contain applications or features (golf related or otherwise) capable of measuring conditions or providing information (e.g. compass, current local weather conditions, temperature, wind, slope or club recommendation ", as long as " this other information or measurement tool [is] only accessible via an internet browser or shortcut to the internet. "

Sounds like what they wanted to do is say it's ok to have a browser as long as you don't use it to access weather data, etc.

The problem is, a compass is common in almost all smart phones nowadays, and you don't need an internet browser to access it.

So even with all this extra wordiness and flowchartery, the R&A; is still effectively banning all smart phones for use as DMDs.

[drglew]

Originally Posted by elementz

I am still farily new to golf but why in the heck would a compass be illegal....I can't think of any reasons off the top of my head.  Why does it matter if the hole is pointing towards the north, or east, etc?  How does that help a golfer play his shot?

Apparently you haven't seen how deep into the woods I can hit a ball...a compass, or perhaps a bread crumb trail, are valuable commodities.  I do have a divining rod though...it's called my 5 iron on the 11th hole of my home course--guaranteed to find water!

[jshots]

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Wow - they actually made a flowchart to explain this.  And yet they still have failed to grasp the state of current technology, IMO.

According to the flow chart, it's ok for the device to "contain applications or features (golf related or otherwise) capable of measuring conditions or providing information (e.g. compass, current local weather conditions, temperature, wind, slope or club recommendation", as long as "this other information or measurement tool [is] only accessible via an internet browser or shortcut to the internet."

Sounds like what they wanted to do is say it's ok to have a browser as long as you don't use it to access weather data, etc.

The problem is, a compass is common in almost all smart phones nowadays, and you don't need an internet browser to access it.

So even with all this extra wordiness and flowchartery, the R&A; is still effectively banning all smart phones for use as DMDs.

Yes this. I currently use an app that gives me distance and tracks my shots that I had originally planned to sell with some other awesome features using features of the phone that would be illegal. I haven't done it yet because It would be pointless with the completely stupid wording of the rule.

ALL the rule needs to say is that, regardless of what capabilities the device (smartphone in this case) has, it is legal to use it during the round as long as the only information the golfer receives is distances, or information that doesn't assist the golfer in anyway.

[MiniBlueDragon]

Quote:

the gauging or measuring of other conditions that might affect play (e.g., wind speed or direction, or other climate-based information such as temperature, humidity, etc.);

I think the simplest 'fix' is to decide on whether a comma or the word 'or' should be used. The following (current phrasing) suggests that 'wind speed' OR 'wind direction' should not be accessible as the phrases "wind speed or direction" is separate from the rest by use of a comma:

Quote:

the gauging or measuring of other conditions that might affect play (e.g., wind speed or direction , or other climate-based information such as temperature, humidity, etc.);

That means current devices with a compass would be ok.

On the other hand changing the 'or' out for a comma would mean that compasses are not allowed:

Quote:

the gauging or measuring of other conditions that might affect play (e.g., wind speed, direction, or other climate-based information such as temperature, humidity, etc .);

[Rulesman]

That means current devices with a compass would be ok.

14-3/4 says a compass is illegal

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

That means current devices with a compass would be ok.

14-3/4 says a compass is illegal

14-3/4 says a compass is illegal yes.

A real compass works by using a magnetic 'pin' which is suspended such that it can spin freely and respond the the planet's magnetic field. The field causes the pin to rotate to point at magnetic north.

A 'compass' on a phone is a piece of software using several Hall effect sensors in the device to judge the phone's orientation so it 'technically' isn't a compass.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

A 'compass' on a phone is a piece of software using several Hall effect sensors in the device to judge the phone's orientation so it 'technically' isn't a compass.

Good luck with that.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

14-3/4 says a compass is illegal yes.

A real compass works by using a magnetic 'pin' which is suspended such that it can spin freely and respond the the planet's magnetic field. The field causes the pin to rotate to point at magnetic north.

A 'compass' on a phone is a piece of software using several Hall effect sensors in the device to judge the phone's orientation so it 'technically' isn't a compass.

Originally Posted by zeg

Good luck with that.

LOL So the radio compass used in airplanes isn't a compass either?  Where do people get these ideas.  A "compass" is an instrument which tells direction.  It doesn't matter how it achieves that goal.  From Wiktionary:

compass (plural compasses)

A magnetic or electronic device used to determine the cardinal directions (usually magnetic or true north).

[MiniBlueDragon]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

A "compass" is an instrument which tells direction.  It doesn't matter how it achieves that goal.  From Wiktionary:

Quote:

compass (plural compasses)

A magnetic or electronic device used to determine the cardinal directions (usually magnetic or true north).

Yeah not sure what I was on with that post. I know my mind was on a "real" compass in terms of a physical device with magnetic needle but I haven't a clue why I didn't bother checking if a radio/digital/other compass is classed as a compass or not.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Yeah not sure what I was on with that post. I know my mind was on a "real" compass in terms of a physical device with magnetic needle but I haven't a clue why I didn't bother checking if a radio/digital/other compass is classed as a compass or not.

It's ok, I think we all know that "technically correct" is the best sort of correct. Took it a little too far is all.