releasing the club......confused

[carpediem4300]

Playing a round today, and every driver-wood i hit was a straight fade which is my usual shot with these clubs,...driving wind and rain also causing issues But after loosing a few balls i came to a dog leg left and with nothing to lose thought "sod it, ill try as hard as i can to draw this round the corner" I set up straight at the middle of the fairway and had the main swing thought of rolling my wrists through impact to create the draw Jeesus h christ i striped it straight as hell with a sound off the clubface which i only heard when watching pros do reviews of my TM burner on youtube , ot was a really distinct tinging sound I tried the same again on.the next hole and sure enough, same sttaight shot, same sound, 241 yards into a headwind And the same again the hole after,....all with the same thought of rolling the wrists through impact to create a draw,... So my questions are 1) this rolling of the wrists to create a draw - have i just stumbled into releasing the club properly? Meaning before i wasnt hence my push fade 2) althought it worked, does this make my swing to handsy and reliant on timing like ive heard luke donald is sometimes? I had my swing videod by a pro last week and he picked up on an open clubface at impact and a severe inside takeaway,.......ive almost sorted the takeaway,...just the clubface now i guess

[poser]

no rolling the wrists is not going to help you hit the draw you want.  You want an inside out swing with a open face to target but, closed to path to hit a draw.   Rolling the wrists with an inside out swing you would be hitting big pull draws and snap hooks.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

[Zeph]

0.1) Don't roll your wrists to hit a draw. It may work now and then, but you don't want to ingrain that move. 1) It can, but that's not because of the rolling. The draw happens when the clubface is closed to the path. Obviously rolling the wrists over through impact will increase the likelyhood of achieving just that. 2) I'm willing to bet you it will not be consistent. Rolling the wrists like that can result in a lot of varied results. Sometimes you time it perfectly, sometimes it goes to the left, sometimes right. I got two links you can look at. The first explains what makes the ball fly as it does. This can help you understand why the ball draws and what conditions are required. http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws The second discusses the issue of "releasing the club", which can be interpreted in different ways. http://thesandtrap.com/t/30392/advice-i-hate-release-the-club

[carpediem4300]

Thanks zeph I got a jist of the ball flight laws, and understand i was trying the wrong method to hit a draw, but i just couldnt risk aiming right and trying to.use my swingpath/clubfave position otherwise my ball was very wet! So i know the thoughts were wrong, but im wondering if the action for what turned out to be a straight shot was correct? Im wondering if i have natural issues of releasing.the clubhead and the thought of rolling.through impact has got.me releasing properly? I know the swing is so fast that to manipulate the hands is actually near impossible,..... Which leads me to think,.....if i set up for a draw with a closed stance, if i would then actually hit a draw?

[carpediem4300]

Originally Posted by poser

no rolling the wrists is not going to help you hit the draw you want.  You want an inside out swing with a open face to target but, closed to path to hit a draw.   Rolling the wrists with an inside out swing you would be hitting big pull draws and snap hooks.

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

Thanks Poser,....i appreciate the method i used to attempt a draw wasnt quite there,......but it bemused me that i hit it straight whilst trying to roll my forearms through the shot,...

So forgetting the draw aspect of my story,.....its lead me to "think" that perhaps ive been holding on through impact and not releasing properly,...leaving me with an open clubface

I imagine that if i took the same principle that i used to hit that straight shot, and i set-up properly for a draw, I might actually get a draw?

Its just a thought,...im not necesarily going out to hit a draw, but understand why i hit some of the shots i do,...fromt he videos i watched on youtube last night it would seem that the "holding on" through impact and not releasing the club could very well be the reason for my big fades,...

and rolling through impact isnt necessarily a big or weird manipulation im doing but im actually releasing the club properly for a change

I just wanted to see if that rang true with anyone on here

[johnthejoiner]

Release is the gradual turning of the club from hip height on your downswing through your swing to hip height on the far side of impact.

[poser]

Don't get me wrong there are players who play with a full roll release it just takes alot of timing to make it work.  I play with a guy in his mid 60s who full rolls and he was and still is a great player.  He also suffers from hooks and his fade is about a 5 yard draw.  His ball flight is always working across his target line also and he hits pull hooks which is the worst shot in golf in my opinion.  His recovery and short game shots are some of the best I have ever seen though. I think if you got your path more to the inside you could play with the face being open and you would start hitting more dependable push draws.

VIdeo shows the three types of releases.

[soon_tourpro]

if you consistently hit good shots, go with it.

to much swing thoughts often makes it worse.

yes, it might be your weightshift, release or such wasnt done enough.

ballimpact and ballflight are my criteria.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by poser

VIdeo shows the three types of releases.

Note that nobody uses true vertical hinging on full shots on the PGA Tour. Everyone is somewhere on the gradient between angled hinging and horizontal hinging, if you want to call them that. That's not covered in the video (though I would argue nobody uses that full crossover release either), just pointing it out. Virtually everyone on the PGA Tour uses something between the "hold off" and "blended" mode to use the terms from that video.

I prefer to call it "rate of closure" and you can have a high rate of closure or a slow one. The high rate of closure is tougher to time. It might add a small amount of distance (1-2%?) but at what cost? Everyone "releases" the club somewhat even if it's angled hinging (clubface remaining relatively square to the plane).

[carpediem4300]

thanks guys

Going to use a range session to continue with this "rolling release" thought and see where it goes from there, i guess if i begin to hook the ball i can work backwards

i would bet a decent amount of money that i think im rolling through the release loads, but im actually not,...video of my swing has before proved the difference between what i think it happening and what is actually happening

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by carpediem4300

thanks guys

Going to use a range session to continue with this "rolling release" thought and see where it goes from there, i guess if i begin to hook the ball i can work backwards

i would bet a decent amount of money that i think im rolling through the release loads, but im actually not,...video of my swing has before proved the difference between what i think it happening and what is actually happening

welcome to golf.

that is why many times people who asks for advice seldom know the difference between real and percived..

though to give advice due to feel isnt seen.

[carpediem4300]

had an epiphany last night that sort of rings true with my thoughts,....

Prior to my latest videoed lesson I had gradually strengthened my grip to try and avoid the slice,....but actually ended up hooding the club through impact, so I was holding off the release (as per pros comment when watching high speed video)

So i wonder now that I am using a more nuetral grip, if im still holding off and coming through impact with an open clubface because ive not engrained the new grip/clubface correlation into the subconcious yet

[mdl]

How do you increase rate of closure without being all handsy?

I fight this big time with my longer clubs.  My FAR too frequent miss with those clubs, especially recently, is a push fade with a dead straight divot and a club face that never gets closed.  I've had some days where I don't roll the wrists but consciously push the club at the very bottom with my right hand to close the face, and have been extremely successful with that some days, but as others said above it's hard to control and I've had some awful days where I gave up on it quickly as well.

[carpediem4300]

i dont know MDL to be honest,....When i was hitting straight shots as per my first post i didnt feel like the hands did anything different, i felt like the forearms where rotating over more than anything

yeah my big miss is a push fade of varying catastrophy,......

I really am starting to believe know the action i employed the other day wasnt "handsy, nor totiming based" but it was simply releasing the club properly,....it just felt weird and handsy because i havent/rarely done it before

I practice swing at home without a ball alot working on my takeaway, swing plane, and top position as they all kill me if i dont keep it engrained,.

and i noticed that if i swung as a normally do and stopped about 2ft after "impact" the clubface was still facing the sky,.........but when i try to rotate through the swing the clubhead is a few degrees closed,....

I really need to range session this to be sure but i think i may of stumbled on the root of my evils

[mdl]

Yeah I'm not sure whether what I'm doing to fix it is too handsy or if I just have never had a proper release and am now so used to coming through with an open club face that it feels forced and handsy to get a proper release and get the club face square.  I've been having some success swinging slower and thinking about throwing the club face along the arc I want, which has to led to a slightly more natural feeling way of getting the club face closed, but it's still very inconsistent, leading to a lot of pull-hooks.

I've also found in the past couple days working on this that if I concentrate on standing up through impact (not losing my spine angle, but extending my legs into impact) that seems to help as well.  Not sure what to concentrate on though.  Time to get another lesson I suppose!