Swing to target and what it means

[soon_tourpro]

I coach a golf pro.

I use brain science to support what I do.
and according to "the pharoha" I am one of p57 aliases, and no I am not.

External focus to target. (not on what the body does)

meaning applying that to common golf instruction you will learn about 3 times faster than normal.

Its also how you can enter the zone.

I used that to teach people skills, re-tooled a golf pro swing in 3 weeks doing that not 2 years.

Its all in your head anyway arguably however depending on the focus point the difference is massive.

Is it vague? Sure but having swing thoughts as you learn or as you swing is slowing down your swing, it makes your accuracy worse and your game will suffer.

Focus on target combined with proper tempo for your own body type, allows a new motion to be discovered and aligned without you need to understand how to move your hips or such. What is used is to incorperate one motion at a time until it starts to show up and happens.

There is a difference between your own feel and perception of what your doing which video wont help with.

The instruction has to be vague enough for the individual to explore their own motion and specific enough so they can wait for it to happen without concerning them with swing thoughts or such while learning a new swing or tweaking a motion. That allows skill enhancement in days or weeks which normally would take months or even years. The good thing is for the individual once they do it that way " swing to target " as they learn the new motion, they will discover how their body moves when doing it after a time.

Much easier to learn golf that way IMO.

This is what they did in the old days before filming, video become common, watching ballflight and impact to adjust their practice from.

If you got questions about this I am happy to answer them to my ability.

I used the above approach "focus on target" for a golf pro shown below.

Spain last year mars 2011 Golf pro.
reason for re-tooling swing, back issues.

2012 11mars a few days after shifting.

2012 26 mars 3 weeks later

[The_Pharaoh]

Originally Posted by soon_tourpro

and according to "the pharoha" I am one of p57 aliases, and no I am not.

My sincerest apologies for thinking you were P57, you quite clearly have nothing in common with him.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by The_Pharaoh

My sincerest apologies for thinking you were P57, you quite clearly have nothing in common with him.

Group hug!

[Mordan]

You might not be Patrick57, but it doesn't mean there aren't similarities.

You give us a catchy name "swing to target", spend a lot of time telling us how great it is (3 weeks instead of two years), but provide no detail or information that is helpful in any way.

I can't even ask you a question about it because I have no idea what you're talking about.

It would all probably make more sense to me if you finished your post with a web link and a promise of "the secret" all for €30. At least I'd know that you'd left out the important bits in the hope of making a sale.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by Mordan

You might not be Patrick57, but it doesn't mean there aren't similarities.

You give us a catchy name "swing to target", spend a lot of time telling us how great it is (3 weeks instead of two years), but provide no detail or information that is helpful in any way.

I can't even ask you a question about it because I have no idea what you're talking about.

It would all probably make more sense to me if you finished your post with a web link and a promise of "the secret" all for €30. At least I'd know that you'd left out the important bits in the hope of making a sale.

You can either focus on external event (target) or what your body does during the swing.

That applies to both range practice and playing a course.
If you dont know the difference between those you will struggle.

The practice you do are set up to be as similiar as your playing game.

In the Golf Pro, he used the same target as he did with his old swing and added the new setup, then the hips motion and release as to happen by waiting them out.

Your brain is a pattern machine, which basically means the brain catch patterns and then repeats those, the nuances of those patterns are however subtle so people cant do them with what you would call consious effort the common way people learn the swing and practice.
Your using Intention, discovery by utlilizing the way your brain learned as a kid.

I dont spend much time with amateurs due to their comfort zone is tedious at best.

Doing the above, swing to target you focus on external events moving away from internal sensations that will later be there if you use practice with short high intensity duration.
All supported by brain science if you wonder, what Golf gurus normally does isnt.
Practice like this cuts down the time spent learning by a lot due to the brain is doing things not the muscles (common belief).

You need to add variation in your practice when you swing to target until you built enough associations to the skill and knowledge you already have. Means a pro can do this faster than an amateur due to a more time spent in golf with practice.
Skills are moved from the hippocampus to outer cortex meaning the brain actually physically moves information once it is learned like riding a bike, driving a car, tying shoe lashes.

(shown by science)

The skill then is contextual (swing) which if isolated in practice, becomes the overall organization format when playing golf.

Tweaking or adding a new motion into the old context makes the skill being transfered to already a organized format.

For the pro, being used to what his old swing did, once he could go out and play on the course became suprised how straight he now did hit shots.
His perceptions and beliefs about his performance was based on previous swing motion and once he could trust the result which took 5 playing rounds he now plays better than ever with a new swing. 5 weeks in.

Thanks for asking.

[Zeph]

I know I'll regret this, but OK. How do you make a change in the swing without thinking about what you are changing? Are you going to change by first learning the difference and then hope the subconscience will start changing your muscle memory while you think about something entirely else? [quote name="soon_tourpro" url="/t/57156/swing-to-target-and-what-it-means#post_700514"] This is what they did in the old days before filming, video become common, watching ballflight and impact to adjust their practice from. [/quote] How do you know they did not work on specific swing thoughts in the old days?

[carpediem4300]

if i didnt think about my swing it would never happen, a ball would never get struck and id likely be down the pub,......

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by Zeph

I know I'll regret this, but OK.

How do you make a change in the swing without thinking about what you are changing? Are you going to change by first learning the difference and then hope the subconscience will start changing your muscle memory while you think about something entirely else?

How do you know they did not work on specific swing thoughts in the old days?

Fear not there is wind ahead captain.

If you drive a car to work, and one day they do construction work and you need to change the road to get to work in time, would you hope that you make the change then?

That you be stuck in traffic beacuse you cant use another road? calling your boss telling them you cant turn around and go another route - Not likely.

You learned to speak and walk and run and even tie your shoelashes and a few hundred other things and never worried you would learn those right?
Each swing you do, make a small adjustment, then make a new swing make another adjustment, and 15 swings later with full focus on each adjustments, you just did 15 variations.

If your focus is on the external reference on the outside to target, the body will take care of whatever you do.

You dont change your muscle memory, it has nothing to do with the swing and technically there is no muscle memory, there are simple and complex reflexes.

Ben Hogan spent a few hours hitting balls, but he hit one ball, smoke a cigarett and thought about what did happen during that swing, and then he hit another.
Ben trained his vestibular system and mapped what his body did during motion. Hitting one ball was a 5 minute deal or so for him. Hitting and mapping.

Does this work?
In Hungary they work with kids and adults who has cerebal palsy, its a neurological disease where the body cant do things like open or closing a hand, or even walk due to the brain cant control the legs. Their subconsious is tired...right?
What they do is running a 2 week 12 hour a day crude physical and move the patients legs with great precision and exactly the same way if they cant walk and they work in shift, 2 weeks 12 hour a day and they do a few of those in 6 months, the kid who the doctors said will never walk ever in their life can suddenly take control over their legs.

why? Their brain now consiously can note, that signal is how the legs should move and then they can just do it. (Doctors hate that)

The Talent code book shows that talent is grown due to high intensity practice on the task, which most never do, they  in essence fail more than succced.

Success is the ability to go trough a lot of failure to make sure your able to do the thing you desire.

So if the myth of muscle memory would be true then that approach wouldnt work since your doing more failure than success right?

Still it does work.

Studies shows that experts spend half their practice time in high intensity focus which the more average performer dont.

The brain works with patterns, if you dont do enough variation in your practice and get out of your comfort zone and challenge just beyond your current level, then you dont grow.
You need comparisons, if you dont have enough variation then how would you know what pattern to do?

I meet junior golfers who are ruined by their coaches.

They spend hours upon hours hitting the same shot without doing much variation and then they dont improve much.

There isnt much mystical force here, that you hope to improve or mysterious unconsious, your basically waiting things out until your body starts to produce the desired action by doing enough variation with highly intense deliberate practice. You be suprised how easy it is once your able to do it.

Most people are information junkies, this applies to golfers also, they want information they believe will make a sudden change in their life.

So they collect and collect, and know more, but when asked to use the knowledge and challenge their own comfort zone things suddenly breaks down in spite of their knowledge.

Fear, anxiety, worrying, and other emotions surface and they go back to their comfort zone and delete out the new approach due to it will alter their swing and game so much.

I spent 3 weeks in Spain last year with golfers just under european tour level and it was obvious they didnt practice this way.

Why would you think about what your body is doing as a golf coach teach?

To use video to make a tiny angle in the wrists?

That is so complicated and hard to do and that is why people like Monte Scheinblum who once won long driving and played great golf became lost in swingcrack.

There is a lot more of similiar cases like him out there.

I assume you know where to go captain both at sea and in golf and learning the swing and playing the game.

if not, its easy to be lost out there.

Thanks for asking

[Zeph]

Ahoy... How about a practical example? Say you got a student slicing the ball. His clubhead moves out-to-in during the hitting zone. What would you do to help him? Specifically, what you would tell him before doing any work and how would you tell him to practice?

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by Zeph

Ahoy...

How about a practical example? Say you got a student slicing the ball. His clubhead moves out-to-in during the hitting zone.

What would you do to help him? Specifically, what you would tell him before doing any work and how would you tell him to practice?

well cap,

I ask about ambition level.

Asking how he would want to hit the ball.

what kind of stuff he wants to be able to do.

Then ask him to define it.

What golfers does is to think I need to fix this problem (slice) ask in forums, and then it wont work that good. (junkies/swingcrack)
Most never define how they want to hit the ball and how they want to swing. I spend a lot of time there before doing any suggestions. I also would need video to have any clue to suggest anything.

If he does a modern swing, I would tell him to change it to a classical one, personal favorite is Mike Austin but Nicklaus, Michelson etc..works also. Most wouldnt wanna do that which is fine.
I dont work with amateur golfers who does the modern swing due to its to much to fix there and it will lead to back issues.

I had golfers who said, I slice and such, so I ask what kind of shot do you do when you dont slice? and they show me.

so I say, that isnt a slice, case closed.

If its a over the top move, slide your hips first as suggested by a thread here, and hit an imaginary spot behind/outside right foot with the clubhead coming down.

That would force a proper downswing and turn late which likely would feel off at first.

Feel and perception is a present feeling based upon the percived sensations currently used in the swing (working or not).

If someone slices, it can have a number of causes and to suggest a fix is kinda hard to do.

The golfer wants to fix the slice but I want them to define a proper and working swing before they even starts the practice.

Until that is happening, I dont ask them to practice at all.

The brain needs direction where to go.
I might ask, so what kind of player are you?
What kind of swing do you want to be able to do?

When you swing the way you want in 3 months time how is that like for you?

etc....definition first.

I dont give internet advice normally due to there is little to no quality of control over the process there.

Fixing the slice is the wrong focus.

Fixing the over the top or any other cause, is the wrong focus.

Swing to target assumes your able to define where to go first and what that is like and then engage into deliberate practice.

Playing violin and some music piece has well defined standard when your doing it right.

My sisters kid practice with me he is 20 years old.

He is 36+ handicap and never practice except with me.
With him I give him a point to focus and ask him to do that with enough variation until he built a reference base.(he dont have that) He is able to have good impact now with accuracy that keeps him in play.

Instead of fixing all the things he did wrong, I ask him to build a reference base doing things right and take note when he did things right.

One practice he hit 60 balls fat , way behind the ball.

He took a break, and came back, so I said do this focus on delaying the release and the second shot he hit was so well struck the ball took off 40 yards longer.

I smiled and said, that is proper impact.

The next practice, he hit the ball with great impact from the start.

even though he failed 60 times or more, once he had the feel of a proper impact he knew where to go.

So, fixing the slice isnt the thing to focus on, but how do you want to swing and make the ball fly?

Until you define that you will likely struggle a lot a long time.

Doing the same thing that makes the ball slice instead of starting to do things that are new to build new feel and perceptions is what I teach.

I do that with Golf pro´s due to them are often just able to play but have no idea how they do things since they developed the swing as a kid.

I asked him to hit the same shot with 3 different clubs, the same distance and the same shape, and he couldnt do that. I said, Hogan could, and others can, and 40 minutes later he was able to do it also. I guess dropping Hogans name made it work...

[MiniBlueDragon]

Some people have played golf for 30 years and are still playing off a 28 handicap. They "swing to target" but unfortunately don't have the capacity to figure out where they're going wrong or how to improve the swing they're using.

Having knowledge of the 'ideal' mechanics of the swing simply gives you a mental picture of what you're trying to achieve and the ability to self-diagnose problems as they arise - "My ball sliced out to the right but I know why and can work on a correcting motion." These player improve faster.

Swinging to target won't give people the knowledge required to improve except through trial and error so yes they'll eventually figure out where they went wrong but it'll be a case of "My ball sliced out to the right, maybe it was my grip. No not the grip, go back the old grip. Maybe it was my swing path. That made it worse. Go back. Maybe it was..." etc

I think once players have a sound knowledge of the swing letting go of overly-mechanical thoughts and movements is a great thing as it allows a more dynamic swing which will be better suited to them as an individual but to begin with sound mechanics are a really excellent thing to have, not just "swinging to target".

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by MiniBlueDragon

Some people have played golf for 30 years and are still playing off a 28 handicap. They "swing to target" but unfortunately don't have the capacity to figure out where they're going wrong or how to improve the swing they're using.

Having knowledge of the 'ideal' mechanics of the swing simply gives you a mental picture of what you're trying to achieve and the ability to self-diagnose problems as they arise - "My ball sliced out to the right but I know why and can work on a correcting motion." These player improve faster.

Swinging to target won't give people the knowledge required to improve except through trial and error so yes they'll eventually figure out where they went wrong but it'll be a case of "My ball sliced out to the right, maybe it was my grip. No not the grip, go back the old grip. Maybe it was my swing path. That made it worse. Go back. Maybe it was..." etc

I think once players have a sound knowledge of the swing letting go of overly-mechanical thoughts and movements is a great thing as it allows a more dynamic swing which will be better suited to them as an individual but to begin with sound mechanics are a really excellent thing to have, not just "swinging to target".

No argument from me.

I am a hands on guy.

Video and the secret isnt my area.

I have no issues teaching this approach to someone who done things for 30 years and still would be 28 handicap they could get down to scratch if they so desired.

Golf instruction dosnt impress me much.

I disagree due to you have to organize the brain somehow and doing so with "swing to target" is superior to any other approach.

Without the constant progress is slowed down either it be a low or high handicap player.

[logman]

Mate,thats a very nice swing.

[Harmonious]

The OP makes some really good points (once I got my hippocampus and cortex aligned ) . Please correct my impressions, if I am wrong.

1. Practice with a purpose, don't just hit balls.

2. Work to develop the "feel" of a swing that produces good results.

3. Concentrate less on the things that you do "wrong", but instead focus on what works for you when you do things "right". Try to ingrain those feelings.

In my case, there are times in the middle of a round or on the practice tee when things just don't click.  The shots are not solid, don't fly straight,etc. Then, for some inexplicable reason, I'll make a practice swing that is perfect, at least it feels perfect to me. I just know I will hit the next ball exactly right.  And I do.  I can't explain it, but usually from that point forward, I will hit the ball great.  Just finding that one feeling and knowing that my swing is back on track.

I think we all get a little too bogged down with swing thoughts, to the point that we get in our own way sometimes, and prevent our body from doing what it knows how to do if we just let it.

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by Harmonious

The OP makes some really good points (once I got my hippocampus and cortex aligned). Please correct my impressions, if I am wrong.

1. Practice with a purpose, don't just hit balls.

2. Work to develop the "feel" of a swing that produces good results.

3. Concentrate less on the things that you do "wrong", but instead focus on what works for you when you do things "right". Try to ingrain those feelings.

In my case, there are times in the middle of a round or on the practice tee when things just don't click.  The shots are not solid, don't fly straight,etc. Then, for some inexplicable reason, I'll make a practice swing that is perfect, at least it feels perfect to me. I just know I will hit the next ball exactly right.  And I do.  I can't explain it, but usually from that point forward, I will hit the ball great.  Just finding that one feeling and knowing that my swing is back on track.

I think we all get a little too bogged down with swing thoughts, to the point that we get in our own way sometimes, and prevent our body from doing what it knows how to do if we just let it.

All hands on deck.
Agrees

Purpose with variation.

Feel is the if you want to be fancy the sensation from the vestibular sense that measure your moving trough space with your body limbs.
Focus produce experience specific to context.

Swing thoughts and how people also teach the swing tends to be hard to move away from those thoughts.

The moment you find your practice swing feel you shift focus and if your able to become aware of it (where focus shifts), then your able to be even more able to play that way.

Then greatness awaits.

Currently the guy in the video hit the driver around 300-310.

some might wonder about his distance

[mvmac]

Are you advocating actually swinging clubhead/path towards the target or just that's what the focus should be?

[soon_tourpro]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Are you advocating actually swinging clubhead/path towards the target or just that's what the focus should be?

focus.

Moe Norman swung to target but only in his mind.

His swing didnt follow that.

after all the swing is a an arc and lateral action.

In basket the player focus on target, how the ball goes there is different.

[jshots]

Very nice thoughts. It's evident in every swing really. Just the fact that people say you should keep your feet and body parallel to the arc of your swing is proof of this (for irons anyways). If that were correct then you would hit the ball right every single time.