Is it really all about the long ball ??

[wolfsburg2]

I am not good enough yet for distance to matter. I think it's all about a comfortable approach shot and making swings you like. I need to work on my 0-90 yard game because hitting a big drive on a par 4 leaves me with an awkward 2nd shot. I've been hitting a lot more 4i and 3w lately.

[Mr. Desmond]

Is it about the long ball?

It depends on what tees you're using.

Tee it forward, if there is doubt.

I think it's about the short game.

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by DocPangloss

Advocating that the long ball is more important does not mean advocating that short game matters so little as to require minimal practice.

Nice story, but it doesn't prove that short game is inherently more important...

I suppose for some that might be the case.  For most amateurs however I have to believe the short game is more important because  well over half (maybe 75%)  of amateurs' strokes are inside of 50 yards.  But I would concede that there is a driver yardage you have to achieve off the tee to be competitive.  I think one of the Golf magazines did an article a year of so back that said you need to be about 210+ off the tee to play well on most courses.  But while my story was just a recent one I could tell others.  Like the 80+ year old that I play with on occasion and he can't even do the 210 yards off the tee most of the time, but once inside the 100 yard marker he is down in 2 probably 6 times out of 10  and never seems to take more than 3.  He is a tough guy to beat.  So as a general statement I will "stick to my story" that the short game is more important for almost all golfers.  Just an aside, advocating the short game is more important isn't advocating that the long game isn't also important, just less than the short game.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

Quote:

Originally Posted by DocPangloss

Advocating that the long ball is more important does not mean advocating that short game matters so little as to require minimal practice.

Nice story, but it doesn't prove that short game is inherently more important...

I suppose for some that might be the case.  For most amateurs however I have to believe the short game is more important because  well over half (maybe 75%)  of amateurs' strokes are inside of 50 yards.  But I would concede that there is a driver yardage you have to achieve off the tee to be competitive.  I think one of the Golf magazines did an article a year of so back that said you need to be about 210+ off the tee to play well on most courses.  But while my story was just a recent one I could tell others.  Like the 80+ year old that I play with on occasion and he can't even do the 210 yards off the tee most of the time, but once inside the 100 yard marker he is down in 2 probably 6 times out of 10  and never seems to take more than 3.  He is a tough guy to beat.  So as a general statement I will "stick to my story" that the short game is more important for almost all golfers.  Just an aside, advocating the short game is more important isn't advocating that the long game isn't also important, just less than the short game.

He can't hit the ball 210 yards but gets up and down from up to 100 yards 60 percent of the time. Yeah that sounds believable if he's playing a very short course with few hazards around the green.

[LuciusWooding]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

He can't hit the ball 210 yards but gets up and down from up to 100 yards 60 percent of the time. Yeah that sounds believable if he's playing a very short course with few hazards around the green.

The best way to give yourself options out of trouble is to have power at your disposal. If you don't have a decent long game in terms of accuracy but you have good power, you can hit out of the rough better and hit higher with more spin, in addition to being able to use less club. If you're short, it's hard to stop on the green even with short clubs because power generates spin, and you normally have to hit more club anyway. You can't afford to be in trouble in the first place. And as you said, if he has a bunker in the way or is shortsided, it would be really hard to stop the ball near the pin.

Having a good short game is important to scoring, but you'll hit more greens in regulation and have a lot more shots in your bag if you have a power game. Plus you can play conservatively by choice as a long hitter, but you don't have the option as a short knocker.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

If OB is a problem, then a layup is a smart play, but otherwise a missed green and an up and down for birdie is a better option for many than a layup with another chance at a missed green and up and down. Guys who can't hit the ball 240 are not likely hitting ball consistently 180 and then the green from 90. Regardless of what people on the internet say they can do, they're not doing it in consistely in reality. They're just simply not getting it done - at least I never see it with the guys golf with.

This is my view exactly.  If I'm sitting at 250 and it's fairly open around the green, I'm hitting 3W all day.  I don't expect it to be on the green some huge percentage of the time, but even if I miss fairly badly, if most of the places where I could end up at 25-30 yards away leaves a decent look at up and down, I'm making birdie way more often from there than I am from hitting an easy 9i and then an easy SW.  That 54˚ from 100 yards is a good shot for me, but I have WAY fewer high percentage looks at birdie after that shot than I do after a 25 foot pitch with an open look, even (most of the time, obviously depends on the layout of the green and surroundings) if I'm short sided.  And while it doesn't happen as often anymore, I'll still just totally flub the SW and miss the green entirely and have to get up and down for par much more often than I'll hit the 3W so badly that I can't even get the pitch onto the green and have a 2 putt for par.

Of course, if it's really tight around the green or there's huge trees or OB towards my usual miss or something, then obviously I'll lay up.  But there again, if it gets tight at 210 yards from where I am, then I'm hitting an iron that'll go 200 yards, not 150 yards so I have a full but easy SW.  The closer I am to the green the more likely I am to hit the green with the next shot.

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

He can't hit the ball 210 yards but gets up and down from up to 100 yards 60 percent of the time. Yeah that sounds believable if he's playing a very short course with few hazards around the green.

That's right he doesn't hit the ball with a driver much over 195 or so, the guy is 84 years old after all and not a big man at that.  I think I said "once inside of 100 yards" not 6 0f 10 from 100 yards.  He has a favorite course and it plays about 6300 yards from the member tees.  So you hit a 190 drive and 175 yard 3 wood you are now 360 off the tee.  Many par 4s are 350 to 435 yards so now he is usually inside of 100 yards.  I guess I didn't say it well but he is deadly with a short iron and putter and you'd be surprised how often he pars on holes of less than 400 yards.  But you are certainly entitled to your opinion that short hitters can't play but I believe you're wrong.

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

Plus you can play conservatively by choice as a long hitter, but you don't have the option as a short knocker.

Read through the entire thread, and this is a point I'd like to pick up on.  I used to hit pretty short.  However, the combination of the "Hit Down on the Driver thread", this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Fix-Your-Body-Swing-Revolutionary/dp/B0058M5K0A/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid;=1337040629&sr;=8-1

going to a properly-fit driver, and learning to hit with a really, really loose grip on the club increased my driver by about 40-55 yards.  Getting stronger, as they detail in that book, produces some pretty insane effects after 60 days or so.  I've noticed a plateau - if I keep doing the workouts, the drives don't get longer now, but by doing the exercises in that book with the tension bands, etc... I added a ton of distance in about two-three months.  Do the "dirty dozen", as they refer to them, every night and you will get significantly longer.  Also, loosening my grip on the driver helped really add distance, as did teeing it up lower and trying to blast it.

Most golfers seeking to improve try to get long and accurate at the same time, which is very, very hard.  I went about six months on the range just trying to flat out hit it as hard as I could, then spent another 90 days or so trying to straighten it out.  I would recommend distance first, accuracy second.  If you are willing to get stronger, you can really hit the ball a long way after a few months of workouts.  It is much easier to get used to the feeling of a strong powerful move into the ball without caring where it goes - and add accuracy later - than it is to try to make a strong powerful move into the ball AND keep it in play at the same time.  Maybe someone can add both at once, but I found it to be impossible.  Length first, then accuracy, then take it to the course.

All that said, the biggest difference is in how far the drives go, sure, but just as big a factor is how far the 3 hybrid goes.  I can hit it about 220 off the tee - which is a huge advantage.  Being able to hit a 3 hybrid the same distance as my buddies drive makes the game so much easier.  If you have the length, you can back off.  If you don't have the length, you can't.

I also think, in answering the question, "how important is the long ball?", it depends on your goals.  If your goal is to shoot 85 from the white tees at my local, you can do it driving the ball 210.  If your goal is to be in the conversation for your club championship (which is my goal, eventually), I don't care how good you are, you can't hit it 200 off the tee.  It all depends on your goals if you need the long ball or not, IMO and, obviously, it logically follows that your goals will determine how much you spend working on it.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by ghalfaire

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

He can't hit the ball 210 yards but gets up and down from up to 100 yards 60 percent of the time. Yeah that sounds believable if he's playing a very short course with few hazards around the green.

That's right he doesn't hit the ball with a driver much over 195 or so, the guy is 84 years old after all and not a big man at that.  I think I said "once inside of 100 yards" not 6 0f 10 from 100 yards.  He has a favorite course and it plays about 6300 yards from the member tees.  So you hit a 190 drive and 175 yard 3 wood you are now 360 off the tee.  Many par 4s are 350 to 435 yards so now he is usually inside of 100 yards.  I guess I didn't say it well but he is deadly with a short iron and putter and you'd be surprised how often he pars on holes of less than 400 yards.  But you are certainly entitled to your opinion that short hitters can't play but I believe you're wrong.

I didn't say from exactly 100 either. His stats are better than the average tour player - like an 84 year old Luke Donald - he sounds like a freak of nature.

[ghalfaire]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I didn't say from exactly 100 either. His stats are better than the average tour player - like an 84 year old Luke Donald - he sounds like a freak of nature.

Well you might be correct.  I tried to find PGA stats on Up & Down statistics, but no luck so I don't know how good the Pros are and so can't question your assertion.   But as I watch (un-scientific I know) they seem pretty good and some are much more than pretty good. Certainly they are all better the average bear golfer. Also I don't keep my buddy's stats so maybe it isn't 6 of 10, could be 5 or 5.8 or 6.2 per 10.  I don't have an exact stat so I can't tell you.   But he spends a lot of time on the short game practice area and in the sand practicing and it certainly shows on the course and I don't think I am very far off with 6 of 10.   I'm personally amazed he can hit 190 off the tee at his age and he probably doesn't weigh more than 145 pounds.  So I believe he is getting pretty much all the yardage he physically can and he keeps it in the short grass.

My real point on this thread is that a golfer with a great short game can make up a lot of strokes and often beat others who might be longer, even significantly longer, who do not play well inside of 100 yards.  I have seen it happen a lot in fact.  So my 84 year old buddy and my OP were just stories to support that you can win with the short game and not have to hit 185 yard 8 irons or 300 yard drives.  You drive for show and putt for dough as Arnie said.  Of course at some length difference you just can't make it up and there certainly are golfers who are long and powerful that also have very good short games.  But it has been my observation (no I've never done a study, just observed) that the significant majority of the strokes people make are inside of 100 yards and that most of these same people don't spend much, if any, time in the practice sand trap or at the short game practice area, and they should.

Well anyway I'm done now and I believe the short game is more important because of everything I read and my own experiences (I have never had a good round where I didn't putt well but I've had several good rounds when I didn't drive the ball well).  But to each his own and for sure it is an arguable point as witnessed on the 6 pages of this thread.

[danmalarkey]

There is a par 4 on one of the courses that I play that is 357 yards. I'll hit my drive with about a 70 yard sand-wedge into the green and if my short game isn't up to "par" i'll easily somehow walk away with a six. I really think the short game is the key factor. Hitting the ball far is hard, but not having a three putt is even harder.

[Dave H]

I think it depends on your overall skill level. My stats prove that I hit greens a lot more often when I'm in the fairway. I get a lot more pars when I'm on the green in regulation. Heck, I might even get a birdie here and there. What I definitely can't do though, is score well when I spray tee shots all over, or am constantly putting myself in trouble off the tee. For myself, I would put a consistent long game ahead of a great short game because then I suspect I would feel like I give myself more chances at good scores. A great short game doesn't feel that great when I'm chipping on in 5...

[GlobalGolf]

I would definitely suggest abandoning the “swing out of your shoes” golf swing. Solid contact will trump distance any day on the course. Coming from a PGA professional, just about every lesson I have ever given, I have noticed the same thing right off the bat: the player needed to slow down their tempo. Even in my own game, I have a tendency to swing a little quickly and it’s fairly easy to tell when I hit an off-center shot that I got too quick with it. I have never been known as a long hitter and when I play with buddies who are knocking it way by me I always give them the same response: I’d rather be 150 yards out and in the fairway than 100 yards out and in the woods. Plus you get to put the pressure on your playing partners when you get to hit first!!!

[jmurder]

The game is a whole lot easier if you can hit it further. I recently bought a new driver (Ping i 20). I hit it about 15 yards longer than my old one. I am getting close to being good again.

[johnwayne]

A friend of mine and I tried an experiment on the course the other day.  Late in the evening no other players around. We tried to  gain as much distance as possible from the tee. ( Read kill the ball...  over swing... quick hands etc etc.)  No distance gained, horrible accuracy.  Decided that a conservative swing would net the same amount of yards and better lie than increased distance, also discovered that 3rd shot on a par 5 is going to be a short iron, no matter if its a 7 iron to PW its still accurate. so why bother with an additional 50 yards off the tee.  With my game doesn't matter anyway, cause I'm topping that fairway wood or hybrid anyway.  This is my perspective as a high (read 100+) and playing for 3 months.

[bplewis24]

Are you guys kidding me?  Of course it's all about the long ball!  That's all that matters to me, anyway.

Sometimes when I hit an especially great drive (for me that's about a 285-yard shot down the middle with a slight draw), I just pose and admire it for as long as I possibly can, and then when nobody will wait for me to get off the tee box anymore, I put my driver away, go to my ball, and just pick it up and wait at the next tee box.  Who cares what I would have done after that?  It definitely would not have been as beautiful as that got damn drive!

I kid :-p

Brandon

[x129]

No one is saying swing out of your shoes. That is just stupid. Most people know that overswinging doesn't add distance. People are saying hit the ball far is a big plus.

Here is where 50 yards off the tee makes a difference. Par 4 -400 yards. You hit it 250 leaving a 150 yard approach shot. Hitting the green is reasonable. If you lose 50 yards (maybe you tee off with a 3 hybrid) you are left with 200 yards to the green. Hitting the green from 200 yards is heck of a lot tougher especially if your a player that needs to pull a 3 hybrid to do it.  On Par 5s you can often give up distance. As you say a high handicapper probably shouldn't try a fairway wood or hybrid. Get the ball 200 off the tee and then 2 150 yard shots might be the better play than trying to get 230 then 150 and 120. Sure your will be a lot more accurate from 120 than 150 (something around 10-15 ft) but it might not be worth the risk of OOB or some bad shot.

Originally Posted by johnwayne

A friend of mine and I tried an experiment on the course the other day.  Late in the evening no other players around. We tried to  gain as much distance as possible from the tee. ( Read kill the ball...  over swing... quick hands etc etc.)  No distance gained, horrible accuracy.  Decided that a conservative swing would net the same amount of yards and better lie than increased distance, also discovered that 3rd shot on a par 5 is going to be a short iron, no matter if its a 7 iron to PW its still accurate. so why bother with an additional 50 yards off the tee.  With my game doesn't matter anyway, cause I'm topping that fairway wood or hybrid anyway.  This is my perspective as a high (read 100+) and playing for 3 months.

[johnwayne]

No one is saying swing out of your shoes. That is just stupid. Most people know that overswinging doesn't add distance. People are saying hit the ball far is a big plus.

Here is where 50 yards off the tee makes a difference. Par 4 -400 yards. You hit it 250 leaving a 150 yard approach shot. Hitting the green is reasonable. If you lose 50 yards (maybe you tee off with a 3 hybrid) you are left with 200 yards to the green. Hitting the green from 200 yards is heck of a lot tougher especially if your a player that needs to pull a 3 hybrid to do it.  On Par 5s you can often give up distance. As you say a high handicapper probably shouldn't try a fairway wood or hybrid. Get the ball 200 off the tee and then 2 150 yard shots might be the better play than trying to get 230 then 150 and 120. Sure your will be a lot more accurate from 120 than 150 (something around 10-15 ft) but it might not be worth the risk of OOB or some bad shot.

Yeah kind of the same idea that I came too after that experiment.  Also hurt my L posterior rib conducting said experiment.  PS just started playing golf 4 months ago still learning and trying new things.  Got to love it though when you hit that excellent shot that ends up an extra 20-30 yards down range.   Thinking of buying a 3 wood for that second shot.  Any suggestions?  Own the Nike VRS Driver and a 21 degree Hybrid but no Fairway woods yet.  Driver 250 and the Hybrid at 195.