Ryan Moore and the New Rule 18-2b

[VOX]

Originally Posted by zeg

Which means that, rather than being deemed to have caused it, you must determine whether or not you caused it. If you stomp next to the ball and it starts rolling, addressed or not, that is a penalty. It'll depend on the situation, but IMO if you're reasonably (and gently!) taking your stance, I think you'd be justified to treat it like a rub of the green.

Rub of the green means deflected or stopped by an outside agency and does not seem to apply to the situation you describe. Rub of the green is often misunderstood to mean chance or luck but in golf it has a very specific meaning.

[Dormie1360]

I typed this up earlier, and had it proofed by some smart rules guys to make sure I wasn't misleading anyone.

First, if you cause the ball to move , it's a penalty.  Doesn't matter if you are addressing it or not.  Rule 18-2a and 18-2b

18-2b is a specific section covering what to do after you address your ball and the ball moves .  Used to be a penalty, not matter what the reason. (Gravity, wind, outside agencies, didn't matter).  You were penalized one stroke and you had to replace the ball if the ball moved after you addressed it.

Under the new rule, if you address the ball and it moves, rule 18-2b says there is still a penalty unless it's virtually certain that you did not cause it to move .  In that case rule 18-2b no longer applies, but you still have to look elsewhere under rule 18, namely 18-1 and 18-3 to see if there still is a penalty.

18-1 covers balls moved by an outside agency. No penalty if an outside agency moves your ball. It must be a question of fact, however that an outside agency moved your ball .  Any doubt, and you still get a penalty.

Here's where it gets swampy.  Wind, water, gravity are not outside agencies however, a new decision in the rules states that along with outside agencies, "elements" that cause your ball to move after address, (i.e. wind, water) although not outside agencies, still exempt you from penalty. Gravity is not an element according to the decision, so no relief if you address you ball and the ball moves because of a slope .

So bottom line, it first must be a fact that you did not cause the ball to move, regardless if you are addressing it or not.  If your ball were on a slope and the ball moves, if there was any chance that the act of you say adjusting your feet near the ball might have caused it to move, there would still be a penalty, even if you did not ground your club.  Along similar lines, if it were windy, AND there was a possibility that you unintentionally added to causing the ball to move, there still is a breach of rule 18.

Conversely, if after grounding your club, an outside agency or an element causes your ball to move, and nothing else there is no penalty.

Also, as mentioned, what constitutes addressing the ball has changed.  It used to be grounding your club and taking your stance, except when in a hazard, addressing the ball was defined by taking your stance only.  (You can not ground your club in a hazard.)  Now addressing the ball means grounding your club immediately behind or in front of the ball.  Stance is no longer a determinant.  So, under the new rules, by definition, you can no longer address a ball in a hazard.

I hope this helps.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by VOX

Rub of the green means deflected or stopped by an outside agency and does not seem to apply to the situation you describe. Rub of the green is often misunderstood to mean chance or luck but in golf it has a very specific meaning.

Yes, and "like" means "similar to but not exactly the same as."

[VOX]

Originally Posted by zeg

Yes, and "like" means "similar to but not exactly the same as."

It can but only as a preposition. Otherwise, use "as" (but that is for a whole different forum).

[Fore Nicator]

So if I accidentally knock my ball off the tee with my driver, I can re-tee with no penalty (11-3). If I ground my putter behind the ball and it "quivers", I then incur a 1 stroke penalty. Now I understand that a teed ball is not considered "in play" but these little trivial rules really take the FUN out of the GAME.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fore Nicator

So if I accidentally knock my ball off the tee with my driver, I can re-tee with no penalty (11-3). If I ground my putter behind the ball and it "quivers", I then incur a 1 stroke penalty. Now I understand that a teed ball is not considered "in play" but these little trivial rules really take the FUN out of the GAME.

Really?

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Fore Nicator

If I ground my putter behind the ball and it "quivers", I then incur a 1 stroke penalty.

I don't know what you mean by 'quivers' but did you know a ball is (only ) deemed to have “ moved ’’ if it leaves its position and comes to rest in any other place?

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Fore Nicator

So if I accidentally knock my ball off the tee with my driver, I can re-tee with no penalty (11-3). If I ground my putter behind the ball and it "quivers", I then incur a 1 stroke penalty. Now I understand that a teed ball is not considered "in play" but these little trivial rules really take the FUN out of the GAME.

Under the rules "move" means if the ball leaves it's current position and comes to rest in another.  A ball can quiver or "oscillate" under the rules and not necessarily move.  I'm one of those guys who accidentally does this a fair amount with the putter.  As long as the ball has not changed or moved to a new position no penalty.

Having said that, any doubt as to whether or not it changed positions is resolved against the player.

Edit:  Sorry, missed Rulesman's answer.

[Fore Nicator]

I guess I have to use a better term than quiver so Iacas can understand. For example, I line my putt up with the alignment tool on the ball. I place my putter behind the ball and channel my inner Chevy Chase and try to "be the ball". Then inadvertently the ball moves enough that the alignment mark on the ball is no longer on the line. It has obviously moved even if its now resting just a few dimples away from the original ones. It's just a nitpick rule that adds to the frustration of younger players. For instance, I've been taking my nephews out to teach them the game. I make them count every stroke, hole every putt, and obey every rule. I enforce penalties on them according to the rule book. Do you know how heartbreaking it is for my oldest nephew (15) to be putting for his 1st birdie and have this happen? It makes them want to quit and play something "fun". Gentlemen playing a gentlemenly game should have no problem allowing their opponent to replace the ball as long as it can be determined where that spot was and no advantage was gained from the movement of the ball (i.e. a read on the line). It's a dumb rule, bottom line, really.

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Fore Nicator

I guess I have to use a better term than quiver so Iacas can understand. For example, I line my putt up with the alignment tool on the ball. I place my putter behind the ball and channel my inner Chevy Chase and try to "be the ball". Then inadvertently the ball moves enough that the alignment mark on the ball is no longer on the line. It has obviously moved even if its now resting just a few dimples away from the original ones. It's just a nitpick rule that adds to the frustration of younger players. For instance, I've been taking my nephews out to teach them the game. I make them count every stroke, hole every putt, and obey every rule. I enforce penalties on them according to the rule book. Do you know how heartbreaking it is for my oldest nephew (15) to be putting for his 1st birdie and have this happen? It makes them want to quit and play something "fun". Gentlemen playing a gentlemenly game should have no problem allowing their opponent to replace the ball as long as it can be determined where that spot was and no advantage was gained from the movement of the ball (i.e. a read on the line). It's a dumb rule, bottom line, really.

It's one that should be amended, imho; or

teach the children not to address a putt - hover the putter.

[Beachcomber]

Originally Posted by Mr. Desmond

It's one that should be amended, imho; or

teach the children not to address a putt - hover the putter.

I think hovering the putter would likely lead to more mistakes where you unintentionally hit the ball - or as Fore Nictator stated above - leads to the ball moving a dimple or two off its original line.  I say this especially with kids in mind... They have less strength in their wrist/hands/forearms to steady the putter blade.  So grounding it helps IMO.

Heck - I even have issues hovering a club behind the ball (tee or green).  I've tried it a lot on the tee box in the past, and just had a unsteady feeling.  And the last thing I want while on the box is lack of confidence... (LOL that sounds strange).

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Fore Nicator

Gentlemen playing a gentlemenly game should have no problem allowing their opponent to replace the ball as long as it can be determined where that spot was and no advantage was gained from the movement of the ball (i.e. a read on the line). It's a dumb rule, bottom line, really.

In match play the opponent may choose to ignore a breach. Would you if $10000 were on the line?

In stroke play are all your fellow competitors 'gentlemen' given that they have a duty to protect the field.

But who determines if an advantage was gained? Is 1/2" nearer the hole, is 2", 2', 2 yards?

[Mr. Desmond]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

In match play the opponent may choose to ignore a breach. Would you if $10000 were on the line?

In stroke play are all your fellow competitors 'gentlemen' given that they have a duty to protect the field.

But who determines if an advantage was gained? Is 1/2" nearer the hole, is 2", 2', 2 yards?

I remember Jarmo Somebody from Sweden accusing O'Meara multiple times in the late 90's (?) early OO's  of setting his ball a tiny bit ahead of his mark on the putting green. These guys are good, and some just like to play with other's heads.

Hovering - I use a waggle so hovering is not a big deal.

On the putting green, I like to ground the putter before I raise it slightly to begin the putt. I think the rule about grounding and the ball moving is anal - if setting your club behind the ball sets off tremors in the earth that causes your ball to move, I suggest it's an outside agency and not your club that is causing the ball to move. Or it is the wind and your putter caused some sort of drag effect that had the ball move. Either way, if you don't cause the putter to touch the ball before the stroke, it's horse hockey to call it a stroke penalty.

[Rulesman]

Remember, this rule is not just about the putting green. It applies equally to a ball sitting off the ground in long grass or on a slope in a sandy waste area.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by VOX

It can but only as a preposition. Otherwise, use "as" (but that is for a whole different forum).

That is how I used it. "...treat it like a rub of the green," i.e., treat it the same way one treats a rub of the green---by accepting it without correction or penalty. I did not say, "Treat it as a rub of the green," because it's not one.

Originally Posted by Fore Nicator

I guess I have to use a better term than quiver so Iacas can understand. For example, I line my putt up with the alignment tool on the ball. I place my putter behind the ball and channel my inner Chevy Chase and try to "be the ball". Then inadvertently the ball moves enough that the alignment mark on the ball is no longer on the line. It has obviously moved even if its now resting just a few dimples away from the original ones. It's just a nitpick rule that adds to the frustration of younger players. For instance, I've been taking my nephews out to teach them the game. I make them count every stroke, hole every putt, and obey every rule. I enforce penalties on them according to the rule book. Do you know how heartbreaking it is for my oldest nephew (15) to be putting for his 1st birdie and have this happen? It makes them want to quit and play something "fun". Gentlemen playing a gentlemenly game should have no problem allowing their opponent to replace the ball as long as it can be determined where that spot was and no advantage was gained from the movement of the ball (i.e. a read on the line). It's a dumb rule, bottom line, really.

Maybe your nephew will remember that heartbreak and be more careful next time. If you're going to look the other way on the rule that says "if you just set your golf club next to the ball and it moves, it's your fault," then I wouldn't bother enforcing half the other rules. I can't think of any time I've ever seen this happen when I could reasonably argue that the guy holding the club didn't move the ball, and if there's actual evidence that he didn't cause it, the rule says there is no penalty .

There are problems with this rule, but those problems are not that it's a fundamentally unfair concept. Not even close.

[Fore Nicator]

I guess I wasn't clear enough when I said that I teach them to obey every rule. I didn't look away from this or any other infraction. No matter what my problem with the rule is I still obey them and teach my nephews to do the same. My point is, if soling the putter causes a worm to fart and that causes the ball to move a fraction then the penalty is a joke (but still enforced) and decreases the enjoyment of the game. I played on a green last week that I couldn't even mark my ball without it running down the hill (diseased portion of the green). Now I think everyone can agree that if you sole your putter on the putting surface without touching the ball and it moves isn't a matter of being an unfair rule, it's a matter of being a poorly written rule. I'm not talking about the ball being in the rough and your practice swings or soling it causes it to move. I'm just addressing the putting aspect.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Fore Nicator

I guess I wasn't clear enough when I said that I teach them to obey every rule. I didn't look away from this or any other infraction. No matter what my problem with the rule is I still obey them and teach my nephews to do the same. My point is, if soling the putter causes a worm to fart and that causes the ball to move a fraction then the penalty is a joke (but still enforced) and decreases the enjoyment of the game. I played on a green last week that I couldn't even mark my ball without it running down the hill (diseased portion of the green). Now I think everyone can agree that if you sole your putter on the putting surface without touching the ball and it moves isn't a matter of being an unfair rule, it's a matter of being a poorly written rule. I'm not talking about the ball being in the rough and your practice swings or soling it causes it to move. I'm just addressing the putting aspect.

A worm is a loose impediment.  A farting worm is an outside agency which caused your ball to move. As long as you are certain that the worm's fart caused your ball to move, there is no penalty, replace the ball.  You may also move the worm.

People ask what the rule is, we tell them.  I don't get into arguments about whether a rule is "fair" or not.  Pretty pointless.  I've spent some time with some of the folks that have served on the USGA rules committee in the past. These are some of the people responsible for changing rules.  Pretty normal people who love golf to play golf just like the rest of them.  The other thing I usually notice is that they are very smart.  If I ask what the reasoning for a certain rule is, or that I think a rule seems a little unfair, I usually find that there are a dozen things I did not think about.  What may seem like a small change to me, can have far reaching consequences on many other rules.

Bottom line for me I just play by the rules and don't let the rules prevent me from enjoying the game.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Fore Nicator

Now I think everyone can agree that if you sole your putter on the putting surface without touching the ball and it moves isn't a matter of being an unfair rule, it's a matter of being a poorly written rule.

I, for one, don't agree with this at all. Like I said, in almost every case where this happens, the golfer has caused the ball to move. That is already a penalty under 18-2a. This rule, 18-2b, now simply clarifies that after address you have a higher standard of proof if you want to claim that you did not cause the motion.

Putting green or not, recognizing that the ball is in a lie too precarious to ground your club is a necessary skill to play this game well.