Touching line of putt

[Ignorant]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Except that it is unusual equipment for golf.

It's not being used to play golf. Eyeglasses, a 9-volt battery, and a sharpie are also "unusual equipment for golf…" except for the fact that they're a special category of equipment called "artificial devices."

What are eyeglasses and a laser pen (etc.)? Artificial devices. Just like a book, or a calculator. You can use a calculator during a round of golf, and use it to calculate things, but you can't hit your ball with it.

I will not take a stand here as the issue is rather complicated but I just throw in some questions:

What is it that constitutes 'an unusual equipment'? Is it unusual for golf or unusual in general? As we are dealing with Rules of Golf I would go for the former.

Following preceding logic, IMO a laser pointer is certainly not an usual equipment for golf, unlike eyeglasses, 9V battery, (Rules) book or binoculars. Can we thus say that it is an unusual equipment? Well, I would say so.

Next question is: when an unusual equipment is allowed? Well, that is a good question and the allround (arbitrary) answer is given in R14-3 as already indicated. So the answer should be found from there but against all odds that Rule is not very specific.. ;-)

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by iacas

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Except that it is unusual equipment for golf.

It's not being used to play golf. Eyeglasses, a 9-volt battery, and a sharpie are also "unusual equipment for golf…" except for the fact that they're a special category of equipment called "artificial devices."

What are eyeglasses and a laser pen (etc.)? Artificial devices. Just like a book, or a calculator. You can use a calculator during a round of golf, and use it to calculate things, but you can't hit your ball with it.

I will not take a stand here as the issue is rather complicated but I just throw in some questions:

What is it that constitutes 'an unusual equipment'? Is it unusual for golf or unusual in general? As we are dealing with Rules of Golf I would go for the former.

Following preceding logic, IMO a laser pointer is certainly not an usual equipment for golf, unlike eyeglasses, 9V battery, (Rules) book or binoculars. Can we thus say that it is an unusual equipment? Well, I would say so.

Next question is: when an unusual equipment is allowed? Well, that is a good question and the allround (arbitrary) answer is given in R14-3 as already indicated. So the answer should be found from there but against all odds that Rule is not very specific.. ;-)

I feel that the device in question is sufficiently out of the norm for golf that it can be put in a grey area.  For that reason I quoted Appendix IV earlier that before using such a device in a competition, one should try to contact his local governing body and have them make such a ruling.  It wouldn't even surprise me if, without collaboration, it was allowed by some and not allowed by others, because there is sufficient cause to rule either way.

I don't really see how anyone can say definitively that it should or should not be allowed, at least not without input from a higher authority.  No one can deny that a laser pointer is unusual equipment for golf (in my 40 years in the game I've certainly never seen anyone use one on the course).  It's normal to see one used in a conference room during a business meeting, or in a classroom during a lecture.  It is also usual to point out a line for putting in golf with a club, or finger or shadow or flagstick.  It is not usual to do so with a laser pointer.  Lots of room to swing both ways.

[Rulesman]

I cannot see any of the clauses a), b) or c) in 14-3 being breached by a laser pointer.

Except as provided in the Rules , during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment ....

a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or

b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that might affect his play; or

c. That might assist him in gripping the club,

I't can't be equated with a plumb line as that gauges something. The laser does nothing which is prohibited

[Fourputt]

I cannot see any of the clauses a), b) or c) in 14-3 being breached by a laser pointer.

Except as provided in the Rules, during a stipulated round the player must not use any artificial device or unusual equipment ....

a. That might assist him in making a stroke or in his play; or

b. For the purpose of gauging or measuring distance or conditions that might affect his play; or

c. That might assist him in gripping the club,

I't can't be equated with a plumb line as that gauges something. The laser does nothing which is prohibited

You don't think that it could "assist the player in his play" to have a mark made on the putting green with unusual equipment right up until the instant that he starts his stroke?

[iacas]

I feel that the device in question is sufficiently out of the norm for golf that it can be put in a grey area.

I don't.

I don't really see how anyone can say definitively that it should or should not be allowed, at least not without input from a higher authority.

Nobody's saying definitively. They're just giving their own opinions.

You don't think that it could "assist the player in his play" to have a mark made on the putting green with unusual equipment right up until the instant that he starts his stroke?

As you can do that by pointing at the green or casting a shadow right now, no.

I agree that it doesn't violate the clauses in 14-3.

[Golfingdad]

No one can deny that a laser pointer is unusual equipment for golf (in my 40 years in the game I've certainly never seen anyone use one on the course).

Me neither.  However, - and this is slightly off-topic, but at the same time, slightly not - I played this past Sunday and we teed off BEFORE dawn (crazy muni maximizing revenue) with glow balls for the first hole.  The starter stood behind us and shone a flashlight on our balls (they don't start glowing until you hit them the first time) and in the direction of the fairway.

This thread, your comment, the situation on Sunday, and the fact that I watched The Legend of Bagger Vance last night have my mind wandering now ...

If you're in the middle of an important match that can't be postponed, and it gets dark as you're getting to the final green, if a caddy pulled out a flashlight for the remainder of the hole, that would probably fall in the same category as this laser pointer, would it not?

And that seems to me like something that would blur the line between laser pointer and a pair of glasses, so I would tend to think that the laser (and flashlight), if used as prescribed above and moved away or turned off prior to the stroke, would be perfectly fine.

[rogolf]

Me neither.  However, - and this is slightly off-topic, but at the same time, slightly not - I played this past Sunday and we teed off BEFORE dawn (crazy muni maximizing revenue) with glow balls for the first hole.  The starter stood behind us and shone a flashlight on our balls (they don't start glowing until you hit them the first time) and in the direction of the fairway. This thread, your comment, the situation on Sunday, and the fact that I watched The Legend of Bagger Vance last night have my mind wandering now ... If you're in the middle of an important match that can't be postponed, and it gets dark as you're getting to the final green, if a caddy pulled out a flashlight for the remainder of the hole, that would probably fall in the same category as this laser pointer, would it not? And that seems to me like something that would blur the line between laser pointer and a pair of glasses, so I would tend to think that the laser (and flashlight), if used as prescribed above and moved away or turned off prior to the stroke, would be perfectly fine.

As usually applies, facts and data kill arguments - for the facts and data, ask the USGA,; otherwise our discussion is just chewing up bandwidth and storage space.

[Ignorant]

[QUOTE name="iacas" url="/t/58623/touching-line-of-putt/36#post_967931"]   [QUOTE name="Fourputt" url="/t/58623/touching-line-of-putt/36#post_967927"]   You don't think that it could "assist the player in his play" to have a mark made on the putting green with unusual equipment right up until the instant that he starts his stroke?   [/QUOTE] As you can do that by pointing at the green or casting a shadow right now, no. [/QUOTE] Let's take an alignment rod as an example. You can stick your club in the ground and line up your swing while waiting the group ahead and that is perfectly allowed. But if you do the same thing with an alignment rod you are DQ'd. So the key issue is not whether you may achieve the same outcome with your normal equipment and with an unusual equipment, even though personally I would love to see Rules written that way. When you come to think of it, you are able to indicate the line for putting much more accurately with a laser pointer than with your club hanging in the air. If the sun is shining you get the same outcome with a shadow but what about on a cloudy day? I refuse to accept a different ruling depending on the weather :-P

[bkuehn1952]

As usually applies, facts and data kill arguments - for the facts and data, ask the USGA,; otherwise our discussion is just chewing up bandwidth and storage space.

I sent an email to the USGA yesterday and plan to report what they tell me when I receive a reply.  Stay tuned.

[iacas]

I sent an email to the USGA yesterday and plan to report what they tell me when I receive a reply.  Stay tuned.

I got a response back this morning. I can't quote it as y'all know but it said using a laser to point is fine as long as it doesn't occur during a stroke. @Ignorant , it's not dependent on the weather, and your example fails because the golfer is using the stick as a practice aid. He can use the stick to retrieve a ball from a water hazard, point at a spot on the green, or scare away a goose. As the USGA has responded to my inquiry, I consider this closed.

[rogolf]

I got a response back this morning. I can't quote it as y'all know but it said using a laser to point is fine as long as it doesn't occur during a stroke. @Ignorant , it's not dependent on the weather, and your example fails because the golfer is using the stick as a practice aid. He can use the stick to retrieve a ball from a water hazard, point at a spot on the green, or scare away a goose. As the USGA has responded to my inquiry, I consider this closed.

Thanks for doing the follow-up. I still don't like the result, just another thing to slow down play, but the RB has spoken.

[iacas]

Thanks for doing the follow-up. I still don't like the result, just another thing to slow down play, but the RB has spoken.

It's only gonna slow play down if people start to carry around laser pointers… instead of just using their fingers, the flagstick, etc. to point to a spot. People almost never really point to a spot, anyway. And who knows… if it became popular, they'd probably write a Decision specifically outlawing it. :)

P.S. @bkuehn1952 should get the same answer, but if he gets a different person, he might get a different answer. Were I an RO, I wouldn't penalize someone, though, and I'm comfortable with that.

[Spyder]

How the hell would you see the laser on the green on a bright and sunny Summer's day to begin with? A shadow is by far more effective. Unless, of course, you are playing under the shade of a gigantic tree.

[iacas]

How the hell would you see the laser on the green on a bright and sunny Summer's day to begin with? A shadow is by far more effective. Unless, of course, you are playing under the shade of a gigantic tree.

I dunno. I have a super-bright green laser you can use outside quite easily. I've bounced it off signs over a mile down the road and seen the spot… (at night).

[Spyder]

I dunno. I have a super-bright green laser you can use outside quite easily. I've bounced it off signs over a mile down the road and seen the spot… (at night).

Wow. I guess I picture a laser pointer to be the tiny little things I would buy at a gas station as a kid when I had a few bucks to waste. Those things only worked when it was pitch black and had the cheap little designs that you attached to the end. Never lasted more than a week lol.

[iacas]

Wow. I guess I picture a laser pointer to be the tiny little things I would buy at a gas station as a kid when I had a few bucks to waste. Those things only worked when it was pitch black and had the cheap little designs that you attached to the end. Never lasted more than a week lol.

This one is still small. Costs a hundred bucks though. :-)

[rogolf]

Don't use it near airports!

[Ignorant]

@Ignorant, it's not dependent on the weather, and your example fails because the golfer is using the stick as a practice aid.

I disagree with you but that is most likely in vain, as you delete all posts/lines that you do not like. Just as in my post #44. I cannot help wondering why you did that.