Casey Martin: Cart or Not?

[Phil McGleno]

No it isnt. If it was not an advantage he would not need a cart. [quote name="x129" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/234#post_724651"]It is disputable if riding is an advantage.[/quote] Maybe you should err on the side of inclusion for the several people who got tired during the qualifier because they didn't have a cart and so they bogeyed one of the last few holes or couldn't manage a birdie because they were tired. Let them play too. Top level Sports should not "err on the side of inclusion" They should test everyone the same way. [quote name="zipazoid" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/234#post_724837"]I think the issue isn't so much whether riding v walking is an advantage. It's pretty clear that it is. And if you want to stop right there and not consider the issue further, then you will likely vote No. What this is about is whether it's an advantage to Casey Martin specifically. Well, on the one hand you can say obviously yes it is, from the standpoint of he either rides or he cannot even play - the cart 'advantage' allows him to compete where he otherwise could not. Again, if you want to stop right there and not consider the issue further, then you will likely vote No. However, the real question to me is, is Casey Martin, with his disability factored in because it has to be, getting an advantage over ambulatory golfers that must walk? This is where it gets real fuzzy, with no real way to determine what the answer is. If there were a way to quantify how fatigued Martin is at the end of a round riding a cart & limping to/from the cart compared to an ambulatory golfer walking, then we could truly answer whether it's an 'advantage'. And this is where, speaking only for myself, I feel he's not getting an advantage. Instead, the cart provides him only the opportunity to compete. He may be more or less fatigued at the end of a round over an ambulatory golfer. And since we truly don't know, I am erring on the side of inclusion versus exclusion. He qualified to play in the US Open - his game got him there. That's why I voted Yes.[/quote]

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by David in FL

I've never claimed that the cart gives him an overall advantage over the entire field.  That's not the point....not even a little bit.

Okay, if the point isn't that the cart gives him an overall advantage over the field, then what's the problem?

In other words, are you saying Martin isn't being given an advantage? Yes or no.

If yes, then we just disagree and that's fine. If no, then what's the problem?

[Wally Fairway]

OMG - I turn on US Open live ..... and Phil is getting a ride in a golf cart!

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Okay, if the point isn't that the cart gives him an overall advantage over the field, then what's the problem?

In other words, are you saying Martin isn't being given an advantage? Yes or no.

If yes, then we just disagree and that's fine. If no, then what's the problem?

I wonder what the consensus would be if he had a bionic leg replacement.  One that was stronger than a natural human leg.  I know this is off on a tangent and not something which is even possible right now, but I still wonder.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Wally Fairway

OMG - I turn on US Open live ..... and Phil is getting a ride in a golf cart!

He's not going to burn off those man boobs doing that.

[Phil McGleno]

There's skill in walking 72 holes and still being able to hit quality shots at the end. Golf is mostly about hitting shots but its also about dealing with the mental and physical fatigue. I notice you didnt answer my question about quantifying Tigers advantage. Clearly you feel he must not have one since you couldn't answer exactly how much. [quote name="Mr3Wiggle" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/234#post_724889"]I think we just see the game differently.  I believe the skill involved in golf is in hitting the ball and not so much the walk up to the ball.  If a man can hit the ball well enough to play in the US Open he should get his shot.  The advantage a cart gives a player (if there is one) is not quantifiable.  The net-advantage Casey Martin has over other players in the field is not quantifiable and very well may not exist at all.  In reality he could just as easily still be at a disadvantage all things considered. [/quote] He is given an advantage. That it may or may not overcome his NATURAL disadvantage is not the place of sport to decide. We don't try to overcome anyone else's natural disadvantages. [quote name="zipazoid" url="/t/58810/casey-martin-cart-or-not/252#post_724975"] Okay, if the point isn't that the cart gives him an overall advantage over the field, then what's the problem? In other words, are you saying Martin isn't being given an advantage? Yes or no. If yes, then we just disagree and that's fine. If no, then what's the problem? [/quote]

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

There's skill in walking 72 holes and still being able to hit quality shots at the end. Golf is mostly about hitting shots but its also about dealing with the mental and physical fatigue. I notice you didnt answer my question about quantifying Tigers advantage. Clearly you feel he must not have one since you couldn't answer exactly how much.

He is given an advantage. That it may or may not overcome his NATURAL disadvantage is not the place of sport to decide. We don't try to overcome anyone else's natural disadvantages.

You're chasing your tail Phil.  You do remember asking me to prove a negative right?

[David in FL]

Okay, if the point isn't that the cart gives him an overall advantage over the field, then what's the problem? In other words, are you saying Martin isn't being given an advantage? Yes or no. If yes, then we just disagree and that's fine. If no, then what's the problem?

The cart does not fully make up for his disability. That was the question you asked. It still provides a benefit to him that is unavailable to other competitors. Many of whom are at a physical disadvantage to others in the field too.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

He is given an advantage. That it may or may not overcome his NATURAL disadvantage is not the place of sport to decide. We don't try to overcome anyone else's natural disadvantages.

Then, Phil, you are in either the first or secondf group of people I described in my post below. I'm in the third group.

I think the issue isn't so much whether riding v walking is an advantage. It's pretty clear that it is. And if you want to stop right there and not consider the issue further, then you will likely vote No.

What this is about is whether it's an advantage to Casey Martin specifically. Well, on the one hand you can say obviously yes it is, from the standpoint of he either rides or he cannot even play - the cart 'advantage' allows him to compete where he otherwise could not. Again, if you want to stop right there and not consider the issue further, then you will likely vote No.

However, the real question to me is, is Casey Martin, with his disability factored in because it has to be, getting an advantage over ambulatory golfers that must walk? This is where it gets real fuzzy, with no real way to determine what the answer is. If there were a way to quantify how fatigued Martin is at the end of a round riding a cart & limping to/from the cart compared to an ambulatory golfer walking, then we could truly answer whether it's an 'advantage'. And this is where, speaking only for myself, I feel he's not getting an advantage. Instead, the cart provides him only the opportunity to compete. He may be more or less fatigued at the end of a round over an ambulatory golfer. And since we truly don't know, I am erring on the side of inclusion versus exclusion. He qualified to play in the US Open - his game got him there. That's why I voted Yes.

So it comes down to how you perceive the issue. If you view it globally as a riding v walking issue or if you view it specifically as a Casey Martin issue.

And to figure out how to do so, just look at the title of this thread. It's doesn't say Golfers: Cart or Not. It says Casey Martin: Cart or Not.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Then, Phil, you are in the first group of people I described. And we disagree on this.

Who are you to disagree with Phil McGleno???

[newtogolf]

Not to be cold hearted but quantify the disadvantage Martin would have walking?  It's a stupid game to try and quantify something that's relative to an individual and not easily measured by 3rd parties.  In terms of energy it's 500 - 1000 calories which is equal to me running 3 - 6 miles.

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

That's ridiculous.  You say it's an advantage yet cannot quantify it.  Then in return you require that I prove a negative.  Keep it up.  This is amusing.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Not to be cold hearted but quantify the disadvantage Martin would have walking?  It's a stupid game to try and quantify something that's relative to an individual and not easily measured by 3rd parties.  In terms of energy it's 500 - 1000 calories which is equal to me running 3 - 6 miles.

That's pretty simple. He couldn't play. That's the ultimate disadvantage isn't it.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Not to be cold hearted but quantify the disadvantage Martin would have walking?  It's a stupid game to try and quantify something that's relative to an individual and not easily measured by 3rd parties.  In terms of energy it's 500 - 1000 calories which is equal to me running 3 - 6 miles.

That's easily quantifiable.  He wouldn't be able to play.  I heard the caloric intake thing from Nobilo and Chamblee on tv the other night.  It came off as though they were ticked off they didn't think of it before when they were trying to run this guy off the tour.  The way they were discussing it just came off as petty.  I'm all for protecting the game, but common sense needs to be inserted at times.

[newtogolf]

Playing on the PGA Tour is not an entitlement, you don't seem to understand that.  We all like Casey Martin and feel for his plight, but that doesn't mean we bend the rules to make it possible for him to compete.

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

I see no more advantage in him riding than the rest of the tour having two healthy legs.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Playing on the PGA Tour is not an entitlement, you don't seem to understand that.  We all like Casey Martin and feel for his plight, but that doesn't mean we bend the rules to make it possible for him to compete.

I understand plenty.  Obviously it's not an entitlement, the man earned his way onto the tour before and earned his way into this US Open.  You don't seem to understand that.

[newtogolf]

Then I guess he doesn't qualify for the US Open, life sucks some times.  I'm sure there are a number of disabled people that wish they could be professional athletes in some sport but their disability precludes them from doing so.

Originally Posted by zipazoid

That's pretty simple. He couldn't play. That's the ultimate disadvantage isn't it.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Then I guess he doesn't qualify for the US Open, life sucks some times.

The cart was seen as a reasonable accomodation for a handicapped person.  The tour did a very poor job of proving that the cart was not a reasonable accomodation by not being able to prove a concrete advantage.  Time to get over it.

[newtogolf]

He earned his way by taking his case to the SC and was granted an exception that allows him to play with an advantage over his fellow competitors.  He didn't earn it, he had a better lawyer and sympathetic justices.

Originally Posted by Mr3Wiggle

I understand plenty.  Obviously it's not an entitlement, the man earned his way onto the tour before and earned his way into this US Open.  You don't seem to understand that.