Casey Martin: Cart or Not?

[Mr3Wiggle]

Originally Posted by TourSpoon

Would you give extra points for carrying your own bag?

I think we'd have to.  Probably should have a sliding scale based on bag weight.  The heavier it is the more credit you get.  Also if you have an old bag with out the double straps you get more credit.

[RonTheSavage]

I voted yes before reading through the responses and now Im back on the fence. This would be much easier if Casey Martin was a jerk, but in his interviews on golf channel yesterday he seems like a hell of a guy that takes everything in stride.

[scottyjoe145]

Originally Posted by RollTide

I'd love to hear someone that ends up finishing lower than Casey explain how they would have finished ahead of him had they not become fatigued due to walking. Can you imagine? That's laughable lol.

And very probable at this course...

[RollTide]

I doubt it.

[newtogolf]

My two hand touch football league only allows 4 first downs and to get a first down it's 15 yards not 10 like the NFL, but I don't have delusions that I'm playing professional football.

I'm not sure why you guys can't comprehend when you're out playing a casual round or even in your clubs tournament, you're not playing professional golf.  Even if you've played on a PGA course they are same in name only.  The pin placement and tee boxes aren't the same, nor is the grass height.   You're not (except a few of you) professional golfers, you're not on the Tour so stop comparing the game you play to what the pro's play.

The irony is all this talk about the impact on handicap and riding doesn't apply, PGA Pro's don't use the handicap system.

[RollTide]

My two hand touch football league only allows 4 first downs and to get a first down it's 15 yards not 10 like the NFL, but I don't have delusions that I'm playing professional football.   I'm not sure why you guys can't comprehend when you're out playing a casual round or even in your clubs tournament, you're not playing professional golf.  Even if you've played on a PGA course they are same in name only.  The pin placement and tee boxes aren't the same, nor is the grass height.   You're not (except a few of you) professional golfers, you're not on the Tour so stop comparing the game you play to what the pro's play.   The irony is all this talk about the impact on handicap and riding doesn't apply, PGA Pro's don't use the handicap system.

It applies to anyone who thinks it's a competitive advantage to ride. Although most agree there is no advantage to riding over walking.

[newtogolf]

Some of the Tour's biggest names (Tim Finchem, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Curtis Strange, Paul Azinger, even Tiger Woods) weighed in, either in court or in the court of public opinion, and said that walking is a fundamental part of the game.  They all felt bad for Casey, but their message was that he should walk like everybody else or go home.

But what do these guys know?

Originally Posted by RollTide

It applies to anyone who thinks it's a competitive advantage to ride. Although most agree there is no advantage to riding over walking.

[jetsknicks1]

Originally Posted by zipazoid

Ya know, the contact lens example is a good one. If Martin can't use something to compensate for his disability, then why can golfers compensate for bad eyesight with an artificial device?

Answer that one, Phil McGleno. By your reasoning, golfers with poor eyesight are just SOL. Take away Tom Kite's 1992 US Open win when he wore glasses. Hell, take away Kite's whole career - he used an artificial device to compensate for a disability - poor eyesight.

And before you say it's a ridiculous example, so's your attempt to moral equivilantize (don't know if that's a word) Martin using a cart to Tom Brady having special rules if he's hurt or MS players playing a 2,000y course.

I normally tend to disagree with Zip but he's dead on with this one. How exaactly is Martin being able to get around the course without snapping a leg an advantage? He still has to play from the same tees, same rough & same greens as everybody else. It's not like the other golfers need to give him strokes.

[zipazoid]

Originally Posted by jetsknicks1

I normally tend to disagree with Zip but he's dead on with this one. How exaactly is Martin being able to get around the course without snapping a leg an advantage? He still has to play from the same tees, same rough & same greens as everybody else. It's not like the other golfers need to give him strokes.

And as it regards the 'fatigue factor' of walking, how do we know that Casey's leg isn't totally shot by the end of a day of 18 holes, even with a cart? Everyone sees how he limps around. It wouldn't surprise me at the end of a round with a cart he still has to rest that leg, raise it or whatever....while a healthy player walks out to his courtesy car & tools on back to his hotel.

There's no way to accurately measure this, but I would bet, given his congenital birth defect, that any round - cart or not - has to be a real challenge for him.

So yes. I will concede Jack & Arnie & everyone else's point that walking is integral to the game from the standpoint of fatigue (I know that differs from what I posted earlier...I'm evolving hehe), but if they are going to use that as the basis of their argument - fatigue - then one has to assume a player walking on only one good leg gets more fatigued than someone with two good legs. For the sake of attempting to quantify - you can assume that Martin is twice as fatigued since one is half of two. It's likely a higher ratio than that, but as I said earlier, there's no way to accurately measure.

So their point is valid when comparing apples to apples - two healthy, ambulatory players, one with a cart the other walking, the cart rider has an advantage. But this isn't apples to apples. It's two good legs versus one. Martin isn't getting an advantage, he's getting a chance that otherwise would not exist if not for the cart. I do not beleive for one moment that Casey Martin specifically is getting an advantage over the field by riding a cart.

[x129]

Woods has supported Casey Martin in every article I have seen.  So did a half a dozen other pros (Payne Stuart comes to mind) the first time through. I seem to remember it being about 2:1 in favor of no cart the first time around.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Some of the Tour's biggest names (Tim Finchem, Jack Nicklaus, Arnold Palmer, Curtis Strange, Paul Azinger, even Tiger Woods) weighed in, either in court or in the court of public opinion, and said that walking is a fundamental part of the game.  They all felt bad for Casey, but their message was that he should walk like everybody else or go home.

But what do these guys know?

[RollTide]

I'll say it again...riding in a golf cart has no competitive advantage over walking. Walking is a "tradition" and if someone is able to do so, it's good for the sport to have them do so. You know what else is good for the sport? Making arrangements (that offer no competitive advantage) to allow a great golfer to compete. They're not cutting a bigger hole for him, they're not giving him a remote controlled ball, they're simply allowing him approach his ball in a slightly different manner than everyone else.

[newtogolf]

You're wrong, but we're all entitled to our opinion.  Since riding in a cart doesn't offer any compettitve advantage then you'd be okay with everyone using carts when Casey qualifies?

Originally Posted by RollTide

I'll say it again...riding in a golf cart has no competitive advantage over walking. Walking is a "tradition" and if someone is able to do so, it's good for the sport to have them do so. You know what else is good for the sport? Making arrangements (that offer no competitive advantage) to allow a great golfer to compete. They're not cutting a bigger hole for him, they're not giving him a remote controlled ball, they're simply allowing him approach his ball in a slightly different manner than everyone else.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

My two hand touch football league only allows 4 first downs and to get a first down it's 15 yards not 10 like the NFL, but I don't have delusions that I'm playing professional football.

I'm not sure why you guys can't comprehend when you're out playing a casual round or even in your clubs tournament, you're not playing professional golf.  Even if you've played on a PGA course they are same in name only.  The pin placement and tee boxes aren't the same, nor is the grass height.   You're not (except a few of you) professional golfers, you're not on the Tour so stop comparing the game you play to what the pro's play.

The irony is all this talk about the impact on handicap and riding doesn't apply, PGA Pro's don't use the handicap system.

I comprehend just fine thanks. Don't get your knickers in a knot.

Your points about tee boxes, pin placement, grass height etc... are irrelevant, we all know (at least I do) that we aren't playing at the same level but the debate seems to revolve around whether or not carting is an advantage in the game of golf - do we at least agree that we are playing golf?

In any case I voted "no cart", but I enjoy the discourse on the reason why, or why not, someone else would have a differing opinion.

And I'm pretty sure that most everyone in this thread is aware that the pros don't use the handicap system in their competitions but thanks for the heads up.

[Ernest Jones]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You're wrong, but we're all entitled to our opinion.

Lol, ok.

[RollTide]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

You're wrong, but we're all entitled to our opinion.  Since riding in a cart doesn't offer any competitve advantage then you'd be okay with everyone using carts when Casey qualifies?

No, as I said ,"if someone is able to walk, it's good for the sport to have them do so". You don't seriously think it's advantageous for someone to ride do you?

[newtogolf]

I do and so do the pro's I listed above who's opinions I value much higher than yours or mine who have never played on the PGA Tour.  When I walk 18 in 90*+ temps I'm more fatigued at the end of a round than when I ride in a cart, and I'm a long distance runner so it's not that I'm not in shape.

Originally Posted by RollTide

No, as I said ,"if someone is able to walk, it's good for the sport to have them do so". You don't seriously think it's advantageous for someone to ride do you?

[RollTide]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

I do and so do the pro's I quoted who's opinions are valued much higher than yours or mine who have never played on the PGA Tour.  When I walk 18 in 90*+ temps I'm more fatigued at the end of a round than when I ride in a cart, and I'm a long distance runner so it's not that I'm not in shape.

They value walking the golf course, cause it's always been a part of the game. I highly doubt they believe one can get the ball in the hole using fewer strokes by riding in a cart. If it makes you feel any better, the highs are supposed to be in the low to mid 70s this weekend, so I would venture to guess even someone who is not a long distance runner like yourself will be able to finish the round without being so physically fatigued that they can't hit a golf ball 70 or so times.

[Mr3Wiggle]

Following Newtogolf's logic....Newtogolf's opinion is wrong and thus irrelevant since RollTide is a 15 handicap and he's a 23 handicap.