second ball on tee

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

It's a stretch.  It's true you don't have to look for it, but anyone else can look for it and if found, you are required to identify it.  Someone can check me on this but, although you always have the option to play stroke and distance under rule 27-1, once you declare a second stroke as a provisional, I don't think you can ignore a ball that (even if you are the only one that sees it), may be the original.

Correct. A provisional is automatically abandoned if the original ball is found in bounds.

Ask Don Donatello about that one. :)

[Nole77]

I see, so as long as I'm virtually certain my ball didn't go into the water, I can hit a provisional in case I can't find the original.  If I then find my original ball, I continue to play it as normal.  If I can't find the original, I play my provisional with a one stroke penalty.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Nole77

I see, so as long as I'm virtually certain my ball didn't go into the water, I can hit a provisional in case I can't find the original.  If I then find my original ball, I continue to play it as normal.  If I can't find the original, I play my provisional with a one stroke penalty.

Yes.......but to be clear on the idea of virtual certainty what you should say is I'm not virtually certain that the ball did go in the hazard, therefore I'm going to hit a provisional because the ball may be lost outside the hazard.

You don't have to be virtually certain it did not go in the hazard to play a provisional, there just has to be doubt.

It's a confusing concept to many.....but I think you've got it......which puts you in the 5 percentile of amateur golfers.

[Nole77]

Gotcha!  Thanks!

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Yes.......but to be clear on the idea of virtual certainty what you should say is I'm not virtually certain that the ball did go in the hazard, therefore I'm going to hit a provisional because the ball may be lost outside the hazard.

You don't have to be virtually certain it did not go in the hazard to play a provisional, there just has to be doubt.

It's a confusing concept to many.....but I think you've got it......which puts you in the 5 percentile of amateur golfers.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

Yes.......but to be clear on the idea of virtual certainty what you should say is I'm not virtually certain that the ball did go in the hazard, therefore I'm going to hit a provisional because the ball may be lost outside the hazard.

You don't have to be virtually certain it did not go in the hazard to play a provisional, there just has to be doubt.

It's a confusing concept to many.....but I think you've got it......which puts you in the 5 percentile of amateur golfers.

There is a bit more to it than that. (I know you know but others may not )

The player has also has to have doubt that the ball will be found outside the WH.

eg. A distant WH is surrounded by closely mown grass and the player is not sure if it is in or out. He knows however that if it is not in, then it will be found on the closely mown area. Therefore he may not play a provisional.

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

If the player had advised him that he should play a provisional that would be different and a breach.

I don't get how this is advice about how to play a stroke (which is the breach I am assuming you are talking about).  How can playing a provisional in any way benefit a player outside of saving the time it takes to walk back to the tee if the ball turns out to be OB or lost?

[luu5]

Originally Posted by turtleback

How can playing a provisional in any way benefit a player outside of saving the time it takes to walk back to the tee if the ball turns out to be OB or lost?

I hope you are not comparing the immediate effect on score of hitting a new ball to hitting a provisional ball. This might be the advice part (which I do not agree) in hitting the provisional or hitting a new ball.

If the ball is lost or OB then no benefit except the walk, but do you always know that from tee?

[luu5]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

To be a breach of R8-1 you would have to make the argument that asking him if he were playing a provisional caused him to make a conscious decision to change his play, club choice, or method of stroke.  IMO opinion, in this case, "change his play" is not breached if you are just asking him what he is doing. If the player had advised him that he should play a provisional that would be different and a breach.   I could not find a decision that comes close to the example you gave. IMO I think the RO erred in his ruling.

What if you tell him that "there is an immediate one stroke penalty when hitting a new ball, instead of delayed penalty if hitting a provisional and continuing with it". Is that information about rules or an advice affecting somebody's play?

IMO this is very much the same as someone taking a drop off water hazard saying he "can't remember all the rules" and you remind him about the possible alternatives of relief with WH rules. Now the player decides to do something else than original drop.

1. Have I given him advice which "influence player determining his play"?
2. What if he does not say "can't remember all the rules" implicating he may know the rules? Any change in final ruling?

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

If the player had advised him that he should play a provisional that would be different and a breach.   I could not find a decision that comes close to the example you gave. IMO I think the RO erred in his ruling.

That is not a breach. In fact referees are taught that they should always advise a player to take a provisional when it is warranted.

In fact I have a ruling from the R&A; on the question as the misconception does come up from time to time.

[zeg]

There's this decision which seems to support Dormie's statement about "should."

Decision 8-1/16:

Q. B's ball was lying badly. B was deliberating what action to take when A, his fellow-competitor, said: "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would deem the ball unplayable." Was A giving advice, contrary to Rule 8-1 ?

A. Yes. A's suggestion could have influenced B "in determining his play." Thus, it constituted advice - see Definition of "Advice." It did not constitute "information on the Rules," which is not advice.

While it seems a little different to suggest a provisional, which is mostly a time-saving step rather than a choice of play, it does seem relevant. Is there anything actually in the rules that would permit actually suggesting a provisional? Seems to me that you can tell someone their options, but not suggest one of them.

(i.e., In my current understanding, "Is that a provisional?" would be a perfectly acceptable question, because you're simply clarifying a common source of confusion. "Why don't you hit a provisional?" would probably cross the line.)

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zeg

There's this decision which seems to support Dormie's statement about "should."

While it seems a little different to suggest a provisional, which is mostly a time-saving step rather than a choice of play, it does seem relevant. Is there anything actually in the rules that would permit actually suggesting a provisional? Seems to me that you can tell someone their options, but not suggest one of them.

(i.e., In my current understanding, "Is that a provisional?" would be a perfectly acceptable question, because you're simply clarifying a common source of confusion. "Why don't you hit a provisional?" would probably cross the line.)

There is a difference as taking the unplayable may result in a different score for that hole, whilst hitting a provisional has no such effect. So in essence, proposing a provisinal does not constitute Advice as it is described in the Definitions.

FWIW, I'm with Rulesman and Luu5 in this, as a referee would not penalize anybody suggesting a provisional to another player. I may be wrong, but this is how I see it.

[Dormie1360]

Originally Posted by Ignorant

There is a difference as taking the unplayable may result in a different score for that hole, whilst hitting a provisional has no such effect. So in essence, proposing a provisional does not constitute Advice as it is described in the Definitions.

FWIW, I'm with Rulesman and Luu5 in this, as a referee would not penalize anybody suggesting a provisional to another player. I may be wrong, but this is how I see it.

I see your point...........I don't think I have thought this through enough.  I was originally thinking along the lines of something similar to telling a person to take an unplayable.

I could see where telling someone to take a provisional could affect the outcome of a player's score.  An example would be the player assumes the ball is OB when it is not...but after thinking about it, I don't think the advice rule hinges on whether or not the player would have a different outcome in their score.  If that were the case, officials would not be able to prevent players from breaching a rule.

Still, we're not talking about breaking a rule in the case of playing a provisional.  If a player thinks his ball is OB and is going to play a second ball under 27-1, and an official steps in and says you should call this next stroke a provisional........I don't know, still gives me pause.

I'm still not 100% clear in the logic, but would certainly defer to Rulesman and others who have a definitive understanding of how the Advice rule is to be applied.

[Dormie1360]

Thought about this some more.  I think maybe my original wording might be causing the problem.  My concern was that you should not tell someone to "call" a stroke a provisional, not that he should play a provisional.  Does that change anything in your view?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by zeg

There's this decision which seems to support Dormie's statement about "should."

Quote:

8-1/16

Suggesting to Competitor That He Deem His Ball Unplayable

Q. B's ball was lying badly. B was deliberating what action to take when A, his fellow-competitor, said: "You have no shot at all. If I were you, I would deem the ball unplayable." Was A giving advice, contrary to Rule 8-1 ?

A. Yes. A's suggestion could have influenced B "in determining his play." Thus, it constituted advice - see Definition of "Advice." It did not constitute "information on the Rules," which is not advice.

While it seems a little different to suggest a provisional, which is mostly a time-saving step rather than a choice of play, it does seem relevant. Is there anything actually in the rules that would permit actually suggesting a provisional? Seems to me that you can tell someone their options, but not suggest one of them.

(i.e., In my current understanding, "Is that a provisional?" would be a perfectly acceptable question, because you're simply clarifying a common source of confusion. "Why don't you hit a provisional?" would probably cross the line.)

But.....

If the player looks at his lie and says I'm not sure what to do, his fellow competitor may say,

"The rules give you two options.  You may play the ball as it lies, or you may declare it unplayable and proceed under Rule 28."

He can even go on to explain the player's options under Rule 28.  In that case it does qualify as information on the rules.  You have done nothing to influence the players next stroke, you have only explained the rule.  There was no suggestion as to what course to take.  Mentioning the option of playing a provisional ball is the same thing.  As Rulesman says it is quite a common thing to do.

I've done it many times in club competitions when there was even a slight question of whether a players ball would be found or not.  My home course in Colorado has some very tall (up to 4 feet if we've had a wet spring) native grass in some areas, and a provisional ball is always advised when a shot strays toward the native rough.. I've known several times when the player was absolutely certain that the ball was in play, but we never found it.  In such cases the provisional ball saved time, not to mention a long "walk of shame" back to the tee.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

But.....

If the player looks at his lie and says I'm not sure what to do, his fellow competitor may say,

"The rules give you two options.  You may play the ball as it lies, or you may declare it unplayable and proceed under Rule 28."

I agree that making factual statements about the rules is clearly legal (it's the distinction between "advice" and "information on the Rules which is not advice" in the decision above). I also think you'd be ok making statements like the latter I've quoted.

I could imagine, however, situations where this sort of thing could get hairy. For example, a veiled suggestion like, "You know, buddy, you can take an unplayable, *wink wink*" might not be permissible. I also wonder about what might happen if you gave incorrect or incomplete information in a tournament setting. I'd imagine at least hard feelings might result. But those are contrived edge cases, to be sure.

Regarding the idea that it's ok because a provisional does not affect the score, I don't think that's correct. Advice is "any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke." The words "...or affect the score" is conspicuously absent. You'd have to argue that deciding to play a provisional is not actually "determining one's play," which seems a stretch.

So I still think that asking whether a re-teed ball is a provisional is clearly allowed. It's not counsel, it's not suggestion, it's simply clarifying the intent of the player. It's no different than if you, say, asked a player whether he is dropping under the water hazard rule or the unplayable lie rule. If you tell him to play the provisional, you may be in different territory, though I can't imagine that being a problem outside of very serious competitions, and even that isn't totally clear to me.

[Ignorant]

Originally Posted by zeg

Regarding the idea that it's ok because a provisional does not affect the score, I don't think that's correct. Advice is "any counsel or suggestion that could influence a player in determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke." The words "...or affect the score" is conspicuously absent. You'd have to argue that deciding to play a provisional is not actually "determining one's play," which seems a stretch.

Ok, tell me how hitting a provisional or not would influence a player in determining his play? After all, a provisional ball is not in play until original ball is lost etc. So, had the player not hit a prov ball he'd have to go back and hit a new one thinking exactly the same things he would have when playing the prov ball. So hitting a prov ball would not actually change anything in his plan.

Lots of wordings in the Rules are absent and for a good reason. Many wordings have to be understood in order to be applied and this is the tough part of knowing the RoG. Same thing as with the common law book.

[Rulesman]

This directly from my contact at the R&A.;

Monday, September 07, 2009 3:08 PM

Subject: RE: R 8-1

Dear xxxx

Suggesting to a player that he plays a provisional is not considered to be giving "advice" but rather, providing information on the Rules.  Such information is permitted and is considered good etiquette.

Kind regards

xxxxx
Manager - Rules of Golf

[turtleback]

Originally Posted by Rulesman

This directly from my contact at the R&A.;

Monday, September 07, 2009 3:08 PM

Subject: RE: R 8-1

Dear xxxx

Suggesting to a player that he plays a provisional is not considered to be giving "advice" but rather, providing information on the Rules.  Such information is permitted and is considered good etiquette.

Kind regards

xxxxx

Manager - Rules of Golf

That seems to seal it.  Thanks.