Quick ball flight law question

[blue72ss]

Bubba Watson also said to release for a draw and "hold off" for a fade, in the new Golf Digest.

This is why I'm having a hard time believing all these new ball flight rules.  It seems that it is scientist and forum bloggers saying that the guys that are actually doing it (Bubba) are wrong.

I'm not trying to bash, I'm looking for someone to convince me because it seems everyone on the forum believes the laws, however who are we to tell Bubba Watson how you hit a fade or draw?

[Zeph]

Bubba Watson also said to release for a draw and "hold off" for a fade, in the new Golf Digest. This is why I'm having a hard time believing all these new ball flight rules.  It seems that it is scientist and forum bloggers saying that the guys that are actually doing it (Bubba) are wrong. I'm not trying to bash, I'm looking for someone to convince me because it seems everyone on the forum believes the laws, however who are we to tell Bubba Watson how you hit a fade or draw?

Science is usually right. The "release or hold" approach works for various reasons, but it's not a very efficient approach. Trying to manipulate the hands like that during impact leads to more trouble than it's worth. The difference of a draw and fade are a few degrees. There is no way to control that on a consistent basis. Bubba is not wrong. He plays golf the way he's been taught and learned through hitting thousands of balls. Also, what he does may not be what he does. Nobody is saying you can't hit a draw by rotating the hands through impact, but it doesn't happen the way some claim, and it's very difficult to do consistently. May work for the best players in the world, but it's not a recommended method for anyone. Just like some players claim the ball starts where they swing and end up where the clubface was aimed. Technology and science have proven them wrong. Some has of course known since the 70's or something like that. That doesn't mean they can't play good golf. Just means they don't do what the claim to be doing, as it would never ever give the results they get.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by blue72ss

Bubba Watson also said to release for a draw and "hold off" for a fade, in the new Golf Digest.

This is why I'm having a hard time believing all these new ball flight rules.  It seems that it is scientist and forum bloggers saying that the guys that are actually doing it (Bubba) are wrong.

I'm not trying to bash, I'm looking for someone to convince me because it seems everyone on the forum believes the laws, however who are we to tell Bubba Watson how you hit a fade or draw?

I would agree with you, The laws are right, but so are the feels.

to hit a draw that lands on the target (again, a whole multiplicity of variables can change this) you have to have a face that is right of the target, and a path that is further right. This fact that we cant get away from. But to produce this, feeling rotation of the clubhead can be a viable tool to close the face in relation to the path. Theoretically it may not be consistent, but life and golf don't work on pure theory luckily.

I would prefer to have the incorrect knowlegde but be able to produce the correct reality than the opposite. Luckily, you can have both though, although it wont necessarily make you a better player, as Nick Faldo proves even though his conscious knowledge of ball flight laws is technically incorrect, his subconscious can override that. People give too much credit to conscious knowledge

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by blue72ss

Bubba Watson also said to release for a draw and "hold off" for a fade, in the new Golf Digest.

This is why I'm having a hard time believing all these new ball flight rules.  It seems that it is scientist and forum bloggers saying that the guys that are actually doing it (Bubba) are wrong.

I'm not trying to bash, I'm looking for someone to convince me because it seems everyone on the forum believes the laws, however who are we to tell Bubba Watson how you hit a fade or draw?

I can't argue with Bubba's feel to produce the shots he does.  Impact is a collision, there is no moment at impact to create draw or fade spin by rotating the club in a certain direction.  Also face primarily determines the ball start line, not path.  These aren't opinions, just facts.  Proving it to you is like proving that gravity exists.  The best instructors on tour know this to be true and it's starting to change.  It hasn't reached the Golf Channel booth yet ;-)

http://thesandtrap.com/b/playing_tips/ball_flight_laws

[Dr. Slice]

I played nine holes today working on what was in the push draw video. I was starting the ball off on the right line which was right side of the fairway but i wasn't getting any drawing action. I would imagine i just need more practice on dragging the handle/grip up immediately after contact.

[nevets88]

It's all perspective, no? Maybe Watson fans open the clubface a bit on the backswing and feels the need to close it a bit by impact. Watson's advice would be no good for someone who keeps the face relatively neutral, even worse for someone who closes the clubface going back.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by nevets88

It's all perspective, no? Maybe Watson fans open the clubface a bit on the backswing and feels the need to close it a bit by impact. Watson's advice would be no good for someone who keeps the face relatively neutral, even worse for someone who closes the clubface going back.

I have a closed face throughout my swing and a hold off release for normal shots - but i am totally unaware of it. My goal is to always get the face in the right position.

for me to hit a draw - whether swinging right or simply aiming right for the path, i feel like i release the clubhead more. It feel dramatic to me, but in reality it looks neutral amount of release.

So you can have the FEEL of releasing the club to hit a draw, even if you are a shut face player. Sometimes i play a draw with a face set up way open at address, and then really release hard to close it a lot. All depends on the type of draw i am playing.

[blue72ss]

Originally Posted by Adam Young

I have a closed face throughout my swing and a hold off release for normal shots - but i am totally unaware of it. My goal is to always get the face in the right position.

for me to hit a draw - whether swinging right or simply aiming right for the path, i feel like i release the clubhead more. It feel dramatic to me, but in reality it looks neutral amount of release.

So you can have the FEEL of releasing the club to hit a draw, even if you are a shut face player. Sometimes i play a draw with a face set up way open at address, and then really release hard to close it a lot. All depends on the type of draw i am playing.

Adam can you recommend a site or a book that teaches the swing plane and club face position through impact that you've mentioned in this thread and others?

[blue72ss]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Proving it to you is like proving that gravity exists.

How do you know anything about me or proving something to me?

You really must know everything

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by blue72ss

How do you know anything about me or proving something to me?

You really must know everything

All I'm saying is that there is nothing to prove, ball flight laws are just math and physics.  No personal attack.

Please don't make 4 separate posts when it could all be done in one.

[Adam Young]

Originally Posted by blue72ss

Adam can you recommend a site or a book that teaches the swing plane and club face position through impact that you've mentioned in this thread and others?

Not really, I don't think there are many things out there that teach a more instinctive approach to golf like I teach. Modern society prefers to have numbers and definite methods aka 'you MUST do this or this or you are doomed for failure'.  It's how so many people can make money out of teaching this game - selling false hope to people who are bad at this game. There are only really 2 MUSTs in golf - hit the middle of the face and the ground in the right place. the rest is largely interpretation.

Its not that methodologies are bad, just that they are often not necessary and the people who sell them are under the false pretense that when you get their method down, every shot is going to fly towards the target and knock down the flag.

IMO golf is a skill sport more than a technical game - although there is a balance to be met. Currently the golfing community is heavily weighted on the technical side, as it is much more quantifiable than the skill. I am working on a project right now though that will help balance it all out - 'skill development for golf'. It will be able to fit in with whatever methodology you wish to swing like - Natural golf, Sand T, Morad, Golfing machine or Bubba Watsons brand of 'whatever I feel like at the time. Hopefully it will be accepted in todays society, although i'm more likely to be a golf coaching outcast :) as I don't believe in a certain method (I think i'm actually the only golf coach I know who says he doesn't believe in a certain method and ACTUALLY doesn't believe in a certain method).

[Dr. Slice]

I went t the range yesterday to for on my driver and i still wasn't hitting the ball how id like to. About 80% of my shots with the driver were low hooks. The ball started off going towards the target path and then hooked, which means I'm coming over the top right?

It kind of feels like I'm standing up around impact because i can't get any ball hit with my driver to go more than 20 feet off the ground.

Im going to try to get a video of my swing up sometime soon.

[Mikeod5785]

Originally Posted by Dr. Slice

I went t the range yesterday to for on my driver and i still wasn't hitting the ball how id like to. About 80% of my shots with the driver were low hooks. The ball started off going towards the target path and then hooked, which means I'm coming over the top right?

It kind of feels like I'm standing up around impact because i can't get any ball hit with my driver to go more than 20 feet off the ground.

Im going to try to get a video of my swing up sometime soon.

check the height of the rubber tee at the range if thats what you're hitting off of, if so its probably a 2" rubber tee, which after sticking through the 3/4" mat is only 1 1/4 inches high. Ran into this last time I went to the range and spotted this. Absolutely ridiculous. The ball is teed way too low and practicing off of that tee hieght will destroy your confidence. Go to golfers warehouse they sell 3 inch, 3 1/4 inch and 3 1/2 inch rubber practice tees for 2 bucks apiece, throw them in your bag and go hit the range, watch how far you hit it now.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Dr. Slice

I went t the range yesterday to for on my driver and i still wasn't hitting the ball how id like to. About 80% of my shots with the driver were low hooks. The ball started off going towards the target path and then hooked, which means I'm coming over the top right?

Club face is too closed, if you want to hit a draw, ball should be starting right of the target.  Cub face determines start line not path. I'm guessing you're not coming over the top.

[saevel25]

If its straight with a low hook, that means a very closed clubface to path. Means your path is inside out at impact, but your clubface is closed.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by mvmac

No, having an outward path doesn't rotate the face more to the right.  If anything the face will close faster for guys that try to swing out to the right.  Some good players that swing too far out can struggle with big pushes, but the face is aimed to the right too much because of a compensation they are making.

To properly create an outward path just have the weight forward, the handle forward (flat left wrist) and raising at impact.  That's really all you need to get the "out" to curve it (assuming you're not aiming your body to the left at address) .  No need to actually "swing" out, that can create some problems.

Good video for you to check out

Interesting swing thought and feeling to go for.  I've been working recently on "releasing" the club (yeah, I know that' sometimes thought of as a bad word) since I've always struggled with really dragging the hands forward through impact too hard, often even bowing the wrist to make it physically impossible to get the club face closed enough.  The feel of the good shots (baby push draws, finally!) that I've found is keeping my head "behind" the ball but getting my hips and weight forward while really extending through impact.

I'm gonna try this swing thought too, as it seems to me a different way of accomplishing the same thing.  If you have your weight forward but have kept your head in place and pull the handle up through impact, that's forcing you to get good extension and close the face enough or else you won't even make contact with the ball, you'll swing right over it or horribly top it.  Maybe that feel/thought will make gaining consistency a little easier or faster?  Worth a try at the range at least, and I like having different thoughts/feels to draw on to effect the same outcome, since different feels seem to work better on different days and it's nice to have options on the course for a simple feel to go for to make things work.

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by mdl

The feel of the good shots (baby push draws, finally!) that I've found is keeping my head "behind" the ball but getting my hips and weight forward while really extending through impact.

Yep, good feel, very much what I'm trying to get across.  To raise the handle you have to extend the legs, arms and torso.  I like the feel I prescribed in the video because I think it helps accomplish all three or gets it in the ball park.

[Patrick57]

What's wrong with the simple instruction of attempting to hit the ball with the clubface closed to path, thus creating the right to left curve? Once this is mastered we can then work on flight path. I would like to take this opportunity to congratulate myself on my 400th post.