My Swing (clearwaterms)

[clearwaterms]

I apologize in advance that it is going to be very difficult for me to explain my question so I hope that everybody will bear with me.

I have been taking lessons this year to once again try to attack my slice which has been worse this year.  I know that the problem is that I have an outside in swing and while I can manage it with irons, the driver and fairway woods are far to unreliable as a result.  Additionally, my iron distance is sub par because I am loosing distance and back spin by placing so much side spin on the ball.

I have posted a few videos along with the dates of the videos and encourage any tips, including but not limited too those that pertain to my question.

Here goes...

On the back swing my instructor has asked that I take a steeper back swing.  In the past I have taken the club around my body instead of up and then around.  Please see video from 6/25, the swing on the right is the swing I started the year with.  My instructor worked with me to bring the club UP more instead of back and behind my body so quickly.  This helped.  I started with the path of the club head staying below the plane between the ball and my waist.  Now I start by pulling it up over the plan between the ball and my waist and try to bring it across my shoulder on the back swing.

In my second lesson, we worked on adjusting the back swing by incorporating the wrist hinge.  in the past I had a very flat wrist hinge, and in this new swing that he has me working on, The wrist hinge is "up" for lack of a better term.  Basically if you were to hold the club straight out in front of you and moving only your wrist wave the club face straight up and down, that is the wrist hing that he has me working on.

So the back swing in words is something like this, take the club away lifting the club away from the ball and leaving it in front of my body.  Then as you pull the club back hinge the wrist to raise the club up.  When you get to the top of the back swing, fold the wrists to lower the club face below the plane and then execute the downswing.

Yesterday I went to play for the first time in a very long time and this wrist hinge technique had disastrous results.  I struggled off of every tee, hit HIGH slices and found myself often times over swinging.  It was truly a day filled with mostly struggles.  The shorter clubs (9i~GW) were not terrible, and I even hit a few nice shots into the green, but I was ineffective off the tee and it didn't really matter which club I was using.

6/25 lesson swing

7/3

[MEfree]

I think it is hard to incorporate a new swing and take it to the course and get good results.  Sure, sometimes things may just click, but often times it takes some time to get comfortable with the new swing.  Tiger history is a good example of him playing well, then making swing changes and not playing as well for a while followed by a period where he has gotten more comfortable with the changes and then played really well.

FWIW, it does look like you reduced the amount of over the top from the first video, but this may or may not have carried over to the course.  I have dealt with an over the top move for many years and know that it is hard to get rid of.

Good luck!

[clearwaterms]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I think it is hard to incorporate a new swing and take it to the course and get good results.  Sure, sometimes things may just click, but often times it takes some time to get comfortable with the new swing.  Tiger history is a good example of him playing well, then making swing changes and not playing as well for a while followed by a period where he has gotten more comfortable with the changes and then played really well.

FWIW, it does look like you reduced the amount of over the top from the first video, but this may or may not have carried over to the course.  I have dealt with an over the top move for many years and know that it is hard to get rid of.

Good luck!

Thank you - yes it has been a struggle, and I know from previous experience that often times I over swing and that is what causes the over the top move.  So It might be the new swing has me just swinging from my heels which has always made me take too large of a back swing and i always recover with an over the top move.

But as far as you can tell from the video with me in the green shirt, the back swing with the wrist hinge is correct?

[MEfree]

You and I have a lot in common- lefties with over the top moves.  Here is my posting from a while back http://thesandtrap.com/t/58086/my-swing-mefree

Looking at the 2nd video, I don`t see any over the top move in the left side swing.  It looks like you do one of the things I tried many years ago to combat my too inside then over the top move by taking it away to the outside and then letting it flatten out.  I have no problem with this and it may help you out.  The one thing I do notice is that your club face looks pretty shut at the 35 second mark at waist high.  Not saying that this is the end of the world, but it is something you may want to ask your instructor about.

OTOH, there are guys on tour who do come over the top with Carl Petterssen coming to mind.  Impact position is much more important than what you do at the top (although what you do earlier in the swing certainly has its affect).  The last lessons I took in 2004-6 had me working on improving impact position (shaft lean) first, then worked backwards (including shortening the swing as my over the top came mostly as I over swung).

Rebuilding a swing has to be done in stages and takes time- It seems like your instructor was able to remove the over the top move, so I would tend to want to follow his plan and see how it goes.

[clearwaterms]

Originally Posted by MEfree

You and I have a lot in common- lefties with over the top moves.  Here is my posting from a while back http://thesandtrap.com/t/58086/my-swing-mefree

Looking at the 2nd video, I don`t see any over the top move in the left side swing.  It looks like you do one of the things I tried many years ago to combat my too inside then over the top move by taking it away to the outside and then letting it flatten out.  I have no problem with this and it may help you out.  The one thing I do notice is that your club face looks pretty shut at the 35 second mark at waist high.  Not saying that this is the end of the world, but it is something you may want to ask your instructor about.

OTOH, there are guys on tour who do come over the top with Carl Petterssen coming to mind.  Impact position is much more important than what you do at the top (although what you do earlier in the swing certainly has its affect).  The last lessons I took in 2004-6 had me working on improving impact position (shaft lean) first, then worked backwards (including shortening the swing as my over the top came mostly as I over swung).

Rebuilding a swing has to be done in stages and takes time- It seems like your instructor was able to remove the over the top move, so I would tend to want to follow his plan and see how it goes.

Thank you for the kind words - I think the problem that I have now is that I over swing.  With the old swing I had a good tempo worked out and even though I started very flat I could still bring the club to make contact.  I was just coming over the top and not getting good yardage / fading everything 15 yards to the left (leftie).

So I know my revised swing should work just as soon as I figure out the tempo again.  The hardest part is the driver and a bad drive sets up the wrong mentality for the rest of the hole.

[Chico1972]

If you make a correct shoulder turn no need to hinge the wrist to get the club back.

[clearwaterms]

Originally Posted by Chico1972

If you make a correct shoulder turn no need to hinge the wrist to get the club back.

I am afraid I don't understand, would it be possible for you to provide a video / link?  From what it sounds like you are stating that with specifically your torso and shoulders you can get a golf club back into the top of the back swing without any wrist movement.  If that is the case the golf club will always be at the same angle relative to your fore arm.  That doesn't make any sense to me.  Please elaborate.

[Pablo68]

Frankly, I'm surprised the instructor isn't working on your posture BEFORE working on your swing plane.

Your back appears a bit rounded to me. If you get that more in line traditionally, you're apt to have less to worry about with your plane/wrist hinge.

[Goonsidious]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

Frankly, I'm surprised the instructor isn't working on your posture BEFORE working on your swing plane.

Your back appears a bit rounded to me. If you get that more in line traditionally, you're apt to have less to worry about with your plane/wrist hinge.

agree with this.. see if you can bring it up with the instructor. I am surprised he didn't mention anything

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

Frankly, I'm surprised the instructor isn't working on your posture BEFORE working on your swing plane.

Your back appears a bit rounded to me. If you get that more in line traditionally, you're apt to have less to worry about with your plane/wrist hinge.

Nothing wrong with a rounded back. It's a more relaxed posture. Even Adam Scott, the (former) poster boy for the "Straight Back Society," has gone to gently rounded setup.

I'm not a big fan of what you're working on, really. Your instructor is trying to get you to loop the club over and then under rather than under and then over. That loop is inefficient. Better to get the club where you want it at the top and deliver that sweet spot (and your hands) directly down the plane.

You should have him record a face-on video and a down-the-line video for you without commentary and then add it to this thread.

P.S. Everyone hinges their wrists on the backswing. Ignore that post above.

[Pablo68]

Originally Posted by iacas

Nothing wrong with a rounded back. It's a more relaxed posture. Even Adam Scott, the (former) poster boy for the "Straight Back Society," has gone to gently rounded setup.

While there are people who can play golf successful with a rounded back, it's not ideal. There are people who play successful who "loop the club over and then under" but as you're saying, it's inefficient. Same with the rounded back (which the OP's back isn't gently rounded either).

If the OP wants a text book swing plane, he should try first working on a text book setup. Why not make things easier on yourself by putting yourself in the best position to swing the club. It's like putting the cart before the horse.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

While there are people who can play golf successful with a rounded back, it's not ideal. There are people who play successful who "loop the club over and then under" but as you're saying, it's inefficient. Same with the rounded back (which the OP's back isn't gently rounded either).

I disagree. http://thesandtrap.com/t/56069/good-golf-posture/

Further, I think people who try to get into what they think is a "good golf posture" - stick your butt out, chin up, spine straight - cause a ton of problems for themselves.

[sk golf]

I am concerned with, "That’s when you swing the club over the top you go this way and you see how your body wont react, that’s why your wrists aren’t rolling either." (from the video)

I would love to see a face on video...

[mvmac]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

If the OP wants a text book swing plane, he should try first working on a text book setup. Why not make things easier on yourself by putting yourself in the best position to swing the club. It's like putting the cart before the horse.

Do these guys have a "textbook" setup?  What advantages are there of having a straight back at set-up?

[poser]

yea way to post a bunch of hacks mvmac

[iacas]

Originally Posted by poser

yea way to post a bunch of hacks mvmac

They suck. It's a trick question! It's a TRAP!

/me is resisting the urge to... bah, screw it:

[Pablo68]

Originally Posted by mvmac

Do these guys have a "textbook" setup?  What advantages are there of having a straight back at set-up?

Go back and reread my post "While there are people who can play golf successful with a rounded back, it's not ideal." So you consider the OP on the same level of natural talent as these pros? Apples and oranges comparing these pros to the OP to try to prove your point.

Back at you..................what are the advantages of having a rounded back? (Tiger's is NOT rounded there btw)  If the Op sets up with a rounded back, he can hit it like Jack? Wow.........**runs off to range to try it**

For average people starting at golf or working on their swings, they should try to be neutral in their setup and avoid extreme positions. The OP's back is very rounded; especially for a younger player.

I suppose if the OP had a overly strong grip, I could point to Lee Trevino's VERY strong grip and state 'nah, don't change your grip. Lee hits it well that way........'  Just because someone CAN play exceptionally well with an unorthodox setup doesn't mean the average player can.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Pablo68

Go back and reread my post "While there are people who can play golf successful with a rounded back, it's not ideal." So you consider the OP on the same level of natural talent as these pros? Apples and oranges comparing these pros to the OP to try to prove your point.

Back at you..................what are the advantages of having a rounded back? (Tiger's is NOT rounded there btw)  If the Op sets up with a rounded back, he can hit it like Jack? Wow.........**runs off to range to try it**

For average people starting at golf or working on their swings, they should try to be neutral in their setup and avoid extreme positions.

You said a rounded back is "not ideal", but what are the disadvantages?

While I tend to agree that the average person should err towards neutral, I do think being naturally comfortable and relaxed (aka not tense) counts for something.  Of course, if a guys idea of being comfortable and relaxed puts him in a position that makes it difficult or unlikely to hit a good shot, then of course this should be changed to give him a chance.

BUT, I don`t recall seeing any evidence that a rounded back makes it more or less likely to hit a good shot.  (Maybe there is, and if so, please provide it)

Yes, the OP has a very rounded back, but unless there are ADVANTAGES of a straight back, then the OP has bigger fish to fry than worrying about whether his back is too rounded or not.