Mac O'Grady Swings

[Yff Theos]

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

one swing for all.

It would be perfect. And it is possible with small personal amendments. You like some patterns, some patterns you hate and ridicule. Teaching is an art but it must have a solid base from that all deviations can be easily controlled.

20 minutes ago, iacas said:

BTW, don't come at me with the "anonymous" stuff given that you've not even once shared YOUR name.

I am noone important.

[billchao]

34 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

It would be perfect. And it is possible with small personal amendments. You like some patterns, some patterns you hate and ridicule. Teaching is an art but it must have a solid base from that all deviations can be easily controlled.

Does it really exist? What do you do if you run into a student with physical limitations who is incapable of addressing the ball with the clubface oriented in the standard position? What do you do with larger students who can't really get into pitch? What happens if a student doesn't want to hit a fade? Or older players who can't rotate that quickly... the list goes on.

Teaching should be about getting each individual student to be a better player, not just teaching them one particular swing model. If you get two guys come to you with completely different patterns and misses, are you going to teach them both the Mac setup and takeaway?

The professional tours are filled with hundreds of golfers with different swings, all playing golf at a high level. I don't think they were molded into a single model when they were taught.

[mvmac]

Rather than quote everyone I'll make a quick post and be done.

If Mac was as good of a ball striker as others claim him to be, he would have won more. Ballstriking is what separates the middle of the pack guys from the top guys. I don't doubt his swing looked awesome in full speed and he could impress people on the range. 

@iacas is correct with the stance bit. He's just doing that to set the baseline right. I've never heard of level knees in MORAD.

@iacas is also right because he's asked people that were deeper into MORAD than us. I saw the texts. They were in the program for years, well after McCord, after Bender, after Jodie Mudd.

Golfers have options. MORAD is a complicated one that only a few players got close to looking like the model. What Mac had and has to offer is already out there. I already pointed out what I think Mac got right and what he got wrong.

[Yff Theos]

18 hours ago, billchao said:

Does it really exist? What do you do if you run into a student with physical limitations who is incapable of addressing the ball with the clubface oriented in the standard position? What do you do with larger students who can't really get into pitch? What happens if a student doesn't want to hit a fade? Or older players who can't rotate that quickly... the list goes on.

Teaching should be about getting each individual student to be a better player, not just teaching them one particular swing model. If you get two guys come to you with completely different patterns and misses, are you going to teach them both the Mac setup and takeaway?

The professional tours are filled with hundreds of golfers with different swings, all playing golf at a high level. I don't think they were molded into a single model when they were taught.

Well, of course there are, say, minorities uncapable of doing standard things. My experiences are not wide enough to take that into account as an argument against teaching a given choosen pattern. What I see, two great teaching pros famous from their 'fachkenntnis' that I follow must have a favourite one swing pattern (which is, by the way, not very far from late Mac). It is very visible when looking at their students' swings. I can see them on a daily basis on Instagram. I agree that the priority for a teacher is to make a student a better player but apparently some pros believe that teaching a given favourite pattern accomplishes that goal. And I repeat: I mean a basic pattern without going into details. This is what many famous instructors did: Foley did, Hardy did, S&T guys did, to name a few. If the basic pattern is universal enough I see no obstacles to teach it to rookies as a set of the main swing principles.

 

13 hours ago, mvmac said:

If Mac was as good of a ball striker as others claim him to be, he would have won more. Ballstriking is what separates the middle of the pack guys from the top guys. I don't doubt his swing looked awesome in full speed and he could impress people on the range. 

OK, let us end the discussion of Mac's ballstriking. He surely was a good one and probably one of the best from all golf swing instructors. He could play on the highest level and that is why he is much more reliable to me than these who couldn't sniff it.

 

13 hours ago, mvmac said:

He's just doing that to set the baseline right.

Well, maybe so, but I can see slightly closed feet stance in almost all down-the-line swings of late Mac.

[TTGolf77]

I've been reading this thread and would just like to say this to iacas and mvmac:

You both seem dismissive about mac's knowledge of the swing but I've seen both of your swings on here and youtube.

You both aren't holding your lag nearly as well as mac does and you both wish you had his clubface control through impact. 

If you think you know more about the golf swing because you have 3D modeling, etc, you are severely mistaken. If you want to argue with me on this point post really clear high speed videos of your swings, you just aren't doing it right. If you had superior knowledge on the subject your swings wouldn't be so bad. 

[mchepp]

59 minutes ago, TTGolf77 said:

I've been reading this thread and would just like to say this to iacas and mvmac:

You both seem dismissive about mac's knowledge of the swing but I've seen both of your swings on here and youtube.

You both aren't holding your lag nearly as well as mac does and you both wish you had his clubface control through impact. 

If you think you know more about the golf swing because you have 3D modeling, etc, you are severely mistaken. If you want to argue with me on this point post really clear high speed videos of your swings, you just aren't doing it right. If you had superior knowledge on the subject your swings wouldn't be so bad. 

I see that you are pretty new @TTGolf77 so you might not know that we have discussed this only about 50 times. An instructors playing ability or swing quality (whatever that means) has no bearing on their capability to teach. 

Butch Harmon is a great teacher (determined mostly by Golf Digest or whatever) and his swing is fine but isn't that great compared to his star students. Foley, swings decently enough but not that great compared to Justin Rose. There's just no correlation.

So this means the conversation needs to be about the information that is being discussed here. If you disagree with one of @iacas points, great point it out. Don't like something @mvmac pointed out regarding some of the great things Mac learned early on again have a go, but no conversations about their swings. There is tons of information already in this thread worth debating we don't need to debate someone's swing.

[mvmac]

2 hours ago, TTGolf77 said:

You both seem dismissive about mac's knowledge of the swing but I've seen both of your swings on here and youtube.

Saying MORAD isn't the best golf system out there and not putting Mac on a pedestal isn't being dismissive, it's just the truth. It's not just me saying that, it's many guys that have been in his circle that have evolved well past Mac.

I've also posted about the importance of Mac and his positive influence on golf instruction. A lot of what he has said has been proven right but he also got some stuff wrong and his knowledge plateaued many years ago. Reason he's been looking into Trackman and picking the brain of biomechanics the past several years.

2 hours ago, TTGolf77 said:

If you want to argue with me on this point post really clear high speed videos of your swings, you just aren't doing it right.

Feel free to post yours as well @TTGolf77. I just shared an updated swing a few days ago. BTW I'm not trying to make a MORAD-ish swing and haven't for quite some time. I'm not a pro, never said my goal is to swing like Mac and honestly if I had to pick a "model" to swing like it wouldn't be Mac.

Whatever my swing looks like doesn't change the fact that CP isn't a functional golf pattern. It doesn't change the fact that you can play great golf and not look like Mac. It doesn't change the fact that Mac isn't one of the greatest ball strikers of all time. 

[Yff Theos]

3 hours ago, mchepp said:

An instructors playing ability or swing quality (whatever that means) has no bearing on their capability to teach. 

Yes. However, there are different skills to be required from certain groups of instructors. I personally divide them into coaches, real time instructors and inventors. Butch Harmon is rather a coach  for accomplished players, he is not famous from fixing ordinary people (I remember I read somewhen he could not fix a student similarily to Haney's attempts). The most common are real time instructors whose skills are measured on the basis of their possibilities to help a student. Mac belongs to the group of inventors who set new trends and looks for new solutions; it is required from such people to be able to perform what they endorse more than in the remaining two groups  I see lots of "golf swing theoreticians" who cannot perform what they endorse which is sad.

 

3 hours ago, mvmac said:

just shared an updated swing a few days ago.

The swing looks good. To my eye it lacks a better left side extension between p5 and p9 but it is only my opinion.

[iacas]

On top of the things others have already said…

10 hours ago, TTGolf77 said:

You both aren't holding your lag nearly as well as mac does and you both wish you had his clubface control through impact.

Key #3 is Inline Impact. You don't want to "hold the lag." Holding the lag can lead to bad golf.

Besides, if you were going to pick on me in particular about something, you wouldn't pick Keys #3 or #5. You'd pick Key #4.

You miss, as others pointed out, the point that golf instructors don't have to be the best golf players. Often the best players make the worst instructors. Not saying that's the case at all with this topic's subject, just… that's a pointless thing to say. I can demonstrate everything. I'm a +1. So too can and is @mvmac.

5 hours ago, Yff Theos said:

Yes. However, there are different skills to be required from certain groups of instructors. I personally divide them into coaches, real time instructors and inventors. Butch Harmon is rather a coach  for accomplished players, he is not famous from fixing ordinary people (I remember I read somewhen he could not fix a student similarily to Haney's attempts). The most common are real time instructors whose skills are measured on the basis of their possibilities to help a student. Mac belongs to the group of inventors who set new trends and looks for new solutions;

You can wear multiple hats. I've invented several things, for example.

Mac hasn't "set a new trend" or "found a new solution" in over a decade.

And, as always, there are more ways to swing than "The Mac Way™". There are plenty of PGA Tour major champions who don't swing "The Mac Way™."

[iacas]

OT crap moved.

Discuss Mac's theories or his swings or his patterns here, with the understanding that everyone gets to contribute.

[billchao]

30 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

That is the point. I am here to discuss Mac's ideas.

Please, do. From what I've seen so far, you don't actually know them, and if you do, you're not actually sharing your ideas. 

You've studied his swings and come up with your own theories as to the things he does, but you've never met him or attended his clinics, correct? It seems as if you're just trying to pick other people's brains for information without providing much of your own.

[Yff Theos]

I was forced to acknowledge a warning to be able to post. I can see my last post (as well as several important posts in the discussion) had been removed without a reason.

[iacas]

Just now, Yff Theos said:

I was forced to acknowledge a warning to be able to post. I can see my last post (as well as several important posts in the discussion) had been removed without a reason.

Yes, a moderator (not me) gave you a warning for failing to get back to the topic as has been requested multiple times.

Not a single post of yours has been deleted, or even moved to a non-public section of the site. (Nor were any of them, still visible, still published, "important." Nor was the action, discussed by the moderators, done "without a reason.")

What has happened yet again is that you've failed to get back to the topic. To do what you say you wanted to do and to get back to discussing Mac theories, ideas, swing stuff… whatever.

1 hour ago, iacas said:

OT crap moved.

Discuss Mac's theories or his swings or his patterns here, with the understanding that everyone gets to contribute.

That's pretty clear.

[Yff Theos]

 

13 minutes ago, iacas said:

Yes, a moderator (not me) gave you a warning for failing to get back to the topic as has been requested multiple times.

Not a single post of yours has been deleted, or even moved to a non-public section of the site. (Nor were any of them, still visible, still published, "important." Nor was the action, discussed by the moderators, done "without a reason.")

What has happened yet again is that you've failed to get back to the topic. To do what you say you wanted to do and to get back to discussing Mac theories, ideas, swing stuff… whatever.

Haha, hilarous, lol. I am back to the topic then. What a childish play. As I pointed out, why don't you recognize late Mac's closed feet stance at address in almost all footages?

[billchao]

17 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

I was forced to acknowledge a warning to be able to post. I can see my last post (as well as several important posts in the discussion) had been removed without a reason.

Move on from this. It's unproductive.

---

Let's talk about your Mac theories. You spoke of his takeaway A2-A3 being important. Why? Hogan had a different takeaway and it didn't stop him from using a CO release. 

What about the knees level thing? All you've done is declare it is ideal, but why? Where is the proof to back this claim?

There are hundreds of PGA Tour pros who do not have these moves, yet you claim these moves are the ideal model.

You said lots of modern pros use his fundamentals (paraphrasing). Show me. Pretend I know nothing about the golf swing. What are these fundamentals? How would you teach a novice golfer who is a blank canvas?

Elaborate. Support with research, pictures, videos. Show, don't tell.

[mchepp]

6 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

 

Haha, hilarous, lol. I am back to the topic then. What a childish play. As I pointed out, why don't you recognize late Mac's closed feet stance at address in almost all footages?

Show me a swing anywhere on the interwebs where you know what he is trying to with the ball. I have not seen one where someone says Mac is demonstrating high fade, or high draw. I just see swings without knowing what he is demonstrating. By closing his stance he could simply be shifting a baseline to demonstrate something to a student he was teaching.

The closest I saw anyone demonstrate something was David Orr back when he taught full swings (he is an excellent putting coach now). But even then it was cryptic and once we found out even a little detail from it he brought it down.

[Yff Theos]

20 minutes ago, billchao said:

Let's talk about your Mac theories. You spoke of his takeaway A2-A3 being important. Why? Hogan had a different takeaway and it didn't stop him from using a CO release. 

I said p1-3 is being important, that's for sure, not p2-p3. You surely have me discouraged to use your silly a-points, then I will use correct p-ones. What does Hogan's takeaway to do with this? We talk Mac's takeaway.

 

25 minutes ago, billchao said:

What about the knees level thing? All you've done is declare it is ideal, but why? Where is the proof to back this claim?

Revert to my earlier posts, I guess you did not read them.

 

25 minutes ago, billchao said:

There are hundreds of PGA Tour pros who do not have these moves, yet you claim these moves are the ideal model.

Yes, because I guess this move would help them to have better statistics. Not under 50% of FIR and GIR of the pros you admire.

 

27 minutes ago, billchao said:

You said lots of modern pros use his fundamentals (paraphrasing). Show me.

I said lots of good teachers use Mac's principles WHEN TEACHING. Again, if you want to have an argument, prepare well.

 

29 minutes ago, billchao said:

What are these fundamentals? How would you teach a novice golfer who is a blank canvas?

Here you are, what I see:

p1-p2: outside takeaway with closed feet

p2-p3: hinged wrists to approx. 90 deg.

p4: laid off look

p4-p5: return on plane without  changing angles much

p5-p6: shallowing the clubface

p7-p8: angled hinge

p9: recocking

22 minutes ago, mchepp said:

Show me a swing anywhere on the interwebs where you know what he is trying to with the ball. I have not seen one where someone says Mac is demonstrating high fade, or high draw. I just see swings without knowing what he is demonstrating. By closing his stance he could simply be shifting a baseline to demonstrate something to a student he was teaching.

See what I posted above, think, then try it with your own swing then come back to me.

[iacas]

Spoiler

48 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Haha, hilarous, lol.

What's hilarious? That you've been wrong about your posts being deleted, and that you couldn't read the word "moved" properly, or understand how they were not advancing the conversation at all? Because, for anyone who cares, he's wrong. You can easily find every one of his supposedly "deleted" posts. They're still public.

48 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

What a childish play.

Uhhhh… sure thing pal. Insisting that you get back on topic, how childish. :P

 

48 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

As I pointed out, why don't you recognize late Mac's closed feet stance at address in almost all footages?

What are you even asking here?

Last I remember, I pointed out that you were most likely wrong about why Mac set his trail foot back slightly. IIRC, you only ever denigrated my sources there (while remaining anonymous yourself). You never said "oh, that makes sense. I guess I had that wrong."

So, really, what am I supposed to "recognize" about one person's golf swing? That he does it? Okay, done. So… now what?

Do you think I don't teach people to set up that way, sometimes, when appropriate? Because I do. And @mvmac does here:

I support that post fully. So again… what? Hogan set his feet closed with the driver and some longer clubs. That's not a "Mac" thing. People have been setting their feet closed since golf was invented. Hell, 80% of the students I see for the first time aim right.

46 minutes ago, billchao said:

Let's talk about your Mac theories. You spoke of his takeaway A2-A3 being important. Why? Hogan had a different takeaway and it didn't stop him from using a CO release.

As you know, @billchao, Takeaways vary across the game, and while I'll agree that it generally makes sense to do "less" stuff on the takeaway, thousands of players have played great golf without doing a Mac-like takeaway, and some have done things VERY different than what Mac wants, and had MUCH more success than him doing it.

It's hack instruction/coaching/teaching to insist that someone work on their takeaway if it's not something that negatively affects them, or even if it does but it's not their priority at the time.

46 minutes ago, billchao said:

What about the knees level thing? All you've done is declare it is ideal, but why? Where is the proof to back this claim?

He won't have the proof. He, ultimately, doesn't know much about MORAD or Mac, but wants all of us to hop on and tell him how great it is and why everything is the way it is, despite the fact that sometimes the answer is "because Mac thought it looked cool" or "because that's what Mac was having everyone do for 18 months ten years ago."

46 minutes ago, billchao said:

You said lots of modern pros use his fundamentals (paraphrasing). Show me. Pretend I know nothing about the golf swing. What are these fundamentals? How would you teach a novice golfer who is a blank canvas?

Elaborate. Support with research, pictures, videos. Show, don't tell.

And be prepared for counter-examples.

---

15 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

I said p1-3 is being important, that's for sure, not p2-p3. You surely have me discouraged to use your silly a-points, then I will use correct p-ones. What does Hogan's takeaway to do with this? We talk Mac's takeaway.

Okay, A1-A3, then…

15 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Revert to my earlier posts, I guess you did not read them.

He did. Last thing he read about that was that you got them wrong… the knees aren't "level" (parallel - you should stop saying "level") to the baseline. Mac did that trail foot retraction to shift the baseline right of the knees.

So what's he supposed to read in your earlier posts? Something from 1987 that Mac said?

15 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

Yes, because I guess this move would help them to have better statistics. Not under 50% of FIR and GIR of the pros you admire.

Huh?

15 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

I said lots of good teachers use Mac's principles WHEN TEACHING. Again, if you want to have an argument, prepare well.

Uh, "prepare well"? You don't even seem to understand his principles, and yet now "lots of good teachers use Mac's principles"? What are they? Can you prove that they originated with Mac?

Don't lecture the moderators here to "prepare well" when you've demonstrated no preparedness. What are his principles? Prove that he originated them.

15 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

p1-p2: outside takeaway with closed feet

Define "outside"? I don't see that here. Heck, he's inside his "closed feet," no?

25 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

p4: laid off look

Laid off "look"?

Are those laid off? I'd say "no way, not even close." But please, how do you measure how something "looks" to someone or someone else? Is it laid off or not? If it is laid off, why is that an advantage? Laid off, by definition, is off-the-plane, so some compensation is necessary to get the sweet spot back to "the plane."

25 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

p4-p5: return on plane without  changing angles much

Define "much"?

25 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

p5-p6: shallowing the clubface

How do you shallow the "clubface"? Can you shallow the clubface without and not shallow the shaft? And if you meant "shaft" there, as you probably should have… why are you shallowing from an already "laid off look"? If you shallow from an already laid off position, now you're way under plane, and you only have from 6-7 to get back on plane (or slightly over top of it as Mac often liked).

25 minutes ago, Yff Theos said:

p7-p8: angled hinge

That's a pretty wide range, and plenty of players with a horizontal hinge have played some DAMN good golf.

Note: I prefer angled hinging myself, but it's definitely not a requirement. Just a slight preference.

---

And ultimately, @Yff Theos… who cares about all those checkpoints? Thousands of PGA Tour pros have had far more success than Mac while doing very, very few of those things.