Handicap Scoring for loss of hole penalty in Match Play

[sean_miller]

I find if hard to believe that anyone even mildly interested in rules and handicaps could have missed the thread below, but I guess we have to take people at their word, just as the USGA does.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/61648/a-perfect-round-or-sandbagging/18#post_762819

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by Dormie1360

...As far as the USGA being toothless or useless I would point out a misconception that many have as how this is suppose to work.  The USGA is not the front line enforcer, they just lay out the rules.  The enforcers are suppose to be players.  They have the tools to fix sandbaggers.  Every club  is suppose to have a handicap committee which has all the tools and rules necessary to change any "sandbaggers" index, or even take away their handicap.  But, I'd agree that it's almost never done.  But don't just blame the USGA.

I've been the handicap committee chair at my club for a number of years......people, whether players, or club employees could fix almost all the problems but they don't want to be the bad guy.  Players like to bitch, but ask them to get involved in an actual committee proceeding on the matter and they back off.  Club employees are hesitant to get involved because of their position as an employee of  club members.

All good points.

[Dormie1360]

Hi Sean,

First, you sound like you're taking this personal.   I'm on your side....I despise people who cheat at golf, which is what sandbaggers do.  I have no respect for them whatsoever.  I've spent the better part of the last 10 years trying to make handicaps as accurate as I can at my club.

I read your linked thread.  Don't see your point as it relates to my previous post. What did I say that you don't  agree with?  The accuracy of ones handicap starts with the licensed organization that is administering his/her handicap service.  Most often it's at the club level.  Often an incorrect handicap index can be fixed there.  My point is although the problem is known there and can be fixed, it often is not.  As to the other thread, I'm not clear on where the individuals got their indexes.

Granted, with the advent of the internet and internet posting, along with online handicap services, peer review can be harder to implement.  Sometimes it' winds up that the tournament committee at the event has to decide on the accuracy of a handicap.  Often this is after the tournament ends.....but it can be done.

What would your solution be?  What kind of handicap system would you like to see in place.......how would it work?

[rustyredcab]

Post every round as honestly as you can and that's all you can do. Missing shots on purpose is cheating. Estimating high on purpose is cheating. Cheating is cheating.

But not posting matchplay rounds is cheating too. Of the 47 rounds I have in this year, I'd have six if I only posted medal play. That would not give me a fair handicap.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Post every round as honestly as you can and that's all you can do. Missing shots on purpose is cheating. Estimating high on purpose is cheating. Cheating is cheating.

But not posting matchplay rounds is cheating too. Of the 47 rounds I have in this year, I'd have six if I only posted medal play. That would not give me a fair handicap.

This x 10. The USGA handicap rules require that you post rounds that are played entirely or mostly (at least 7 holes worth and you must post your 9 hole score, and 13 and you post your 18 hole score) under the "principles of the RoG." Whether you think this is the wisest approach or not, and regardless of your feelings about estimating scores on unfinished holes, if you have a USGA handicap, you are bound to follow these rules. If you do otherwise, you are cheating.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

Post every round as honestly as you can and that's all you can do. Missing shots on purpose is cheating. Estimating high on purpose is cheating. Cheating is cheating.

But not posting matchplay rounds is cheating too. Of the 47 rounds I have in this year, I'd have six if I only posted medal play. That would not give me a fair handicap.

For me it would add a few strokes. I can live with that. Thanks for easing my conscience.

[rustyredcab]

BTW, because I post every score and do so honestly, when I shoot a score lower than my handicap would predict, my buddies are happy for me instead of thinking I cheated.

As mentioned here before, almost 20 years ago I shot a 75 on a par 70 course and was playing off a 20 handicap that morning. Round of my life. Many buddies were happy for me because they knew if was just one of those mornings. What would they have thought if I chose not to post most of my rounds because they were match play rounds?

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

BTW, because I post every score and do so honestly, when I shoot a score lower than my handicap would predict, my buddies are happy for me instead of thinking I cheated.

As mentioned here before, almost 20 years ago I shot a 75 on a par 70 course and was playing off a 20 handicap that morning. Round of my life. Many buddies were happy for me because they knew if was just one of those mornings. What would they have thought if I chose not to post most of my rounds because they were match play rounds?

I don't know them. I do know the guys who insist on putting out in our league tend to have statistically amazing winning percentages, which is strange in net events that are supposed to have the field somewhat evened out by handicaps. Probably just a coincidence.

[zeg]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I don't know them. I do know the guys who insist on putting out in our league tend to have statistically amazing winning percentages, which is strange in net events that are supposed to have the field somewhat evened out by handicaps. Probably just a coincidence.

Insightful.

People who will cheat will cheat regardless of the rules. The rules now are clear and easy to apply and relatively easy to police. If you play a round, you post the round. In a match you have the opportunity to mark your opponent's score carefully, moreso than in stroke. If their score doesn't add up, be a good peer reviewer and do your job. If someone is fudging putts, tell the committee.

Your solution seems to be that we should all lowball all our scores because people who don't are cheaters. At least, that's all I can get out of your comments.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I don't know them. I do know the guys who insist on putting out in our league tend to have statistically amazing winning percentages, which is strange in net events that are supposed to have the field somewhat evened out by handicaps. Probably just a coincidence.

While there are definitely some sandbaggers, I think there are more vanity handicaps...I`d say that someone who has a 100% honest handicap that plays by the rules of golf and is somewhat consistent will be an overall winner (50+% of matches and ahead overall when they bet) as lots of guys I see give themselves putts twice as long as one I missed in a match this year and don`t follow the rules, thus "scoring" lower than they would if they did.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

BTW, because I post every score and do so honestly, when I shoot a score lower than my handicap would predict, my buddies are happy for me instead of thinking I cheated.

As mentioned here before, almost 20 years ago I shot a 75 on a par 70 course and was playing off a 20 handicap that morning. Round of my life. Many buddies were happy for me because they knew if was just one of those mornings. What would they have thought if I chose not to post most of my rounds because they were match play rounds?

I have almost an identical story.  For me it was 23 years ago, handicap was an honest 16, and I shot a 1 over par 73 in the 3rd round of the club championship (playing in 3rd flight, not 1st, so I was not in line for club champ).  No lynch mob formed - nobody suggested stringing me up because most of them had played with me in tournaments and in casual rounds over the last 2 or 3 years and they knew my handicap was honestly arrived at.  2 months later I closed that season at 11, once again honestly maintained by returning all scores..  If I'd only turned in competion scores, there would only have been 3 more scores returned that season, and my handicap would have still been in the 14-15 range.  To me that would have sandbagging.

There is no Hell deep enough to offer sufficient punishment for sandbaggers.

[sean_miller]

Originally Posted by zeg

Quote:

Originally Posted by sean_miller

I don't know them. I do know the guys who insist on putting out in our league tend to have statistically amazing winning percentages, which is strange in net events that are supposed to have the field somewhat evened out by handicaps. Probably just a coincidence.

Insightful.

People who will cheat will cheat regardless of the rules. The rules now are clear and easy to apply and relatively easy to police. If you play a round, you post the round. In a match you have the opportunity to mark your opponent's score carefully, moreso than in stroke. If their score doesn't add up, be a good peer reviewer and do your job. If someone is fudging putts, tell the committee.

Your solution seems to be that we should all lowball all our scores because people who don't are cheaters. At least, that's all I can get out of your comments.

You got something out of my comments that I did not say. Of course 4 on and 4 putts adds up to 8. That's the problem.