Help - check out my swing

[Ringer]

Actually, I'm going to ask you to either put them somewhere public, sans login, or remove your post.

I thought it was public as I went through the motions with Google to make them public.. but evidently their idea of public and mine are two different things.

I have been posting images through an image hosting website but have been getting a few odd errors. I can redo the post but it will take some time to get all the pictures in order.

[Ringer]

Sorry, I've gotta call B.S. on that one. I swing with my feet together (or recommend it to others) when:

I know not everyone will agree.

So you feel the same exact thing happening with your feet apart as you do when they are together? Then why do the drill at all? Why not learn to seek a feel with your normal swing?

[iacas]

But ill have to go with ringer on the feet together, it might help for a shot or two but in no way is it a permenant fix.

You apparently don't understand the drill, then. No drill is a permanent fix. If they were, they wouldn't be drills - they'd be practice. Drills are, practically by their very nature, not quite the same as a regular, normal swing.

I know not everyone will agree.

Which is why it's silly to say that doing drills like that are "wrong" for everyone. They aren't.

So you feel the same exact thing happening with your feet apart as you do when they are together?

Of course not. But look at the pre-shot routines of some golfers, like Mike Weir or Chris DiMarco or Nick O'Hern. Or Corey Pavin. They take the club back along a dramatically different line in their pre-shot waggles (if you can still call them that) than they do in their full swings.

That doesn't mean their pre-shot things are worthless, and it doesn't mean the "feet together" drill is worthless either.

Then why do the drill at all? Why not learn to seek a feel with your normal swing?

Because it's faster and easier to do that drill, then try to carry a similar feeling back to your regular swing. If you don't quite have the sensation that you're trying to accomplish, it's tough to just magically find it. The easiest way is to find the feeling, then work back to your normal swing, retaining what you can.

[wengerlaw]

I've been having a real problem with releasing the club just before impact. I tend to turn my hips and body during my downswing without getting my arms involved in time to hit the ball with a square face. I generally end up hitting the ball with an open face resulting in a hard push.

I have taken a couple of lessons with a pro and he recommended the feet together drill to help me get my arms more involved and to develop the feeling of releasing the club. So far this drill has been the best thing ever for my swing. It forces you to keep your hips and upper body quieter than normal with more focus on the arms. The drill also prevents you from swinging to hard (another problem I have) because you will lose your balance if you do this. I'd recommend hitting about 15-20 balls with your feet together each time you go the range. Its also a great way to "groove" your swing just before teeing off.

When I do this drill, I use a 7 iron and tee the ball up just a little higher than I would for a tee shot. Just about every time the ball goes straight as an arrow. I would hit the ball like this in play except you lose a good amount of distance (no weight shift, very little torque) and I think it would be pretty hard to hit like this out of the fairway. If I'm ever facing a par three green with water to the left (I'm left handed), I'll consider placing my feet closer together and maybe using one more club than normal for the tee shot.

[powerhitter]

I assumed drills were to be permanent fixes, since they are sections of the golf swing that you then tack onto your existing swing/replace bad sections of the swing with otherwise there would be no point in doing them.

[wengerlaw]

I assumed drills were to be permanent fixes, since they are sections of the golf swing that you then tack onto your existing swing/replace bad sections of the swing with otherwise there would be no point in doing them.

For me, drills like the feet together drill are about muscle memory. If you can get your body and mind to "remember" the motions used in the drill, you can then work on incorporating the motion into my full swing. I am still in the process of working the motion from this drill into my swing.

[Ringer]

I will make this quick adjustment to my statement. A drill IS worthwhile if you are trying to achieve a FEEL that then is your IMMEDIATE GOAL with the next swing.

I just have to say after watching people hit bucket after bucket trying to do a drill, then watch them take a regular swing that looks NOTHING like the drill they were doing... THAT is pointless.

If you want to take some practice swings with your feet together to achieve a FEEL that you want to immediately immitate within the next 20 seconds.. Ok. But I'm sorry, there is NO such thing as muscle memory. Muscles do not have dendrites. There can only be an intention that the brain applies. If the drill can help you with that intention that's great.. but it will never carry on further than the immediate few seconds after.

[NCGolfer]

I know not everyone will agree.

Count me as one.

So you feel the same exact thing happening with your feet apart as you do when they are together? Then why do the drill at all? Why not learn to seek a feel with your normal swing?

I've use the "feet together" drill for years now for a different reason than the ones Erik listed. I've struggled for a few years now mostly with balance. Hitting balls with my feet together forces good balance throughout the swing. I've found that hitting a few balls this way and working towards properly spaced feet has helped me.

Am I hitting 100 balls with my feet together? No. But, like wengerlaw alluded to, it was training my body and muscles to remember how my balance should be before and during the swing. Great analysis of Carnoustie's swing. I think he's pretty solid until the top...a 10 handicapper until he gets there...a 30 after he starts his downswing to put it into perspective. If I'd work with him on one thing, I'd probably start with a couple adjustments on his setup but mostly working that right elbow into his side on the downswing. Good stuff!

[Ringer]

Count me as one.

This reason you give is precisely the reason I say it. I'm sorry but you are NOT learning proper balance for when your feet are apart. You are learning how to balance with your feet together. Why do you spread your feet further apart for when you lift a couch than you do when you lift a glass of water? Because your BALANCE requirements are different with varying force. Same reason you spread your feet further apart for your driver than you do with your putter.

Why would you practice your balance for your putter and say you're working on your driver swing?

Am I hitting 100 balls with my feet together? No. But, like wengerlaw alluded to, it was training my body and muscles to remember how my balance should be before and during the swing. Great analysis of Carnoustie's swing. I think he's pretty solid until the top...a 10 handicapper until he gets there...a 30 after he starts his downswing to put it into perspective. If I'd work with him on one thing, I'd probably start with a couple adjustments on his setup but mostly working that right elbow into his side on the downswing. Good stuff!

Thank you, I like to do them for folks I think are really going to work on their swing. Someone that takes the time to video their swing and post it on a website obviously cares enough about it to practice.

[wengerlaw]

But I'm sorry, there is NO such thing as muscle memory. Muscles do not have dendrites. There can only be an intention that the brain applies. If the drill can help you with that intention that's great.. but it will never carry on further than the immediate few seconds after.

Obviously, muscles don't have the ability to "remember" things. "Muscle memory" is a commonly used colloquialism which means that the brain can learn and remember specific movements which are consistently and repeatedly practiced. I disagree with your statement that "there is NO such thing as muscle memory" and the scientific community would disagree with you as well. (See:

http://www.hhmi.org/cgi-bin/askascie...2Fans_015.html ) I also disagree with your statement that a drill will "never carry on further than the immediate few seconds thereafter." While it is true that practicing a drill once or twice will not result in long term memory of the movement, consistent and repeated use of the drill over a long period of time will result in long-term muscle memory. The principles of short-term and long-term memory apply in this context. As an analogy, while most people can't remember a phone number they have only called once or twice, many people have long-term memory of a phone number they have repeated consistently. I can still remember the phone number for my childhood home even though I haven't lived there or dialed that number in 15 years. The key with a drill is application. It does no good to hit a bucket of balls with your feet together and then leave the range. What will help is to hit 15-20 balls with your feet together and then hit 10 balls with your normal swing (each time concentrating on the movement you felt during the drill). If you do this for a period of weeks or even months, the feel will eventually get engrained long-term. Ringer: While I disagree with your statements about muscle memory, I wanted to say that your swing analysis is fantastic. I have similar faults with my swing and will print your analysis and work on some of your suggestions.

[tdinneen]

Good post wengerlaw, I was just about to do the same when I read the "no such thing as muscle memory". Muscle memory exists pure and simple (and it has nothing to do with your actual muscles having dendrites or not, they don't as you rightly pointed out), that's not my opinion, it's science. You wouldn't be able to walk or ride a bike without thinking about that motion without muscle memory.

Take learning the guitar, you have to start by moving each finger into place to play a chord. Over time your brain learns that basic movement pattern and after a few months you no longer think, index to 1st fret on B string etc.. etc.. you simple tell yor brain play a C Chord.... that's muscle memory.

Same with riding a bike, you have to start with learning not to fall over, balance is all wrong and you have to consciously think about weight shifts... but after a while it all becomes natural, no thinking involved.... that's muscle memory.

Although I'm not the worlds greatest golfer, I am a qualified ski instructor and I've also represented my country a number of times in hammer throwing... and I can attest to the fact that at that level in those sports... drills work and work very well at getting people to feel certain motions, once they begin to feel that particular motion they can try and integrate it into the full set of motions needed to complete that action,

[powerhitter]

There isn't muscle memory, its just your brain which remembers how your muscles should react in a certain situation. This feeling gets applied without "thinking" and thus you have "muscle memory".

[wengerlaw]

There isn't muscle memory, its just your brain which remembers how your muscles should react in a certain situation. This feeling gets applied without "thinking" and thus you have "muscle memory".

Your post contradict's itself: In the first sentence you say "there isn't muscle memory." In the second sentence, you go on to explain what muscle memory is. See my post above.

[iacas]

I just have to say after watching people hit bucket after bucket trying to do a drill, then watch them take a regular swing that looks NOTHING like the drill they were doing... THAT is pointless.

Sure, but I would simply suggest that those are people who don't understand what they're doing.

but it will never carry on further than the immediate few seconds after.

In my experience, that statement couldn't be more wrong. I agree knowledge is important, but with that knowledge, and with a good and proper drill, it "carries on" quite a bit. I won't even get into the "muscle memory" discussion as others already have discussed that with you.

This reason you give is precisely the reason I say it. I'm sorry but you are NOT learning proper balance for when your feet are apart. You are learning how to balance with your feet together.

No, he's not. Did you read what he wrote?

Tiger Woods famously puts two tees just outside of his putter. I watched him Sunday of the U.S. Open do that, and make about 50-100 four-foot putts, swinging through this very small gate, with just his right hand. Why? To ingrain a feeling. Obviously Tiger doesn't putt with just his right hand, and he teed off over an hour after completing the drill. I'll take what Tiger Woods does over what some stranger says on a forum, especially when what Tiger Woods does backs up my own experiences with drills.

[Ringer]

Ok.. next time you go ahead and try swinging the putter with just your right hand and you tell me how much your shoulders turn.

Then put both hands on the club and tell me how much your shoulders turn.

Which one of those will you be doing when there's a 4 foot putt to win the club championship? So then which one does it make more sense to practice?

Tiger wears black shoes on Sunday. Does that mean everyone else should too?

[iacas]

Ok.. next time you go ahead and try swinging the putter with just your right hand and you tell me how much your shoulders turn.

If you do it the way Tiger did it, they turn the same amount as they do with both hands on the putter. And again, that's the point.

But you are stuck in your ways and seem convinced that you know all for everyone, including the best player perhaps in the history of golf.

[Ringer]

If you do it the way Tiger did it, they turn the same amount as they do with both hands on the putter. And again, that's the point.

How did Tiger do it then? Was he making sure his shoulders rotated as he made the stroke? I have not seen him perform this drill.

I'm not stuck in my ways, I just understand how easy it is to believe something helps when it doesn't. It's sort of like practicing drawing circles in order to learn cursive writing. One can put a string of thoughts together that trick you into thinking one is going to help the other.. but in reality it's more of a waste of time when you could just be practicing that thing you should be doing. The best player in the world is still human and is just as likely to fall into this trap of conjecture as anyone else is. I understand education. I'm not thinking "golf"... I'm thinking in terms of learning. And learning your abc's to get better at algebra does not work.. despite the fact that both use letters.

[iacas]

How did Tiger do it then? Was he making sure his shoulders rotated as he made the stroke? I have not seen him perform this drill.

As I said, his shoulders were rotating just as they would during a normal stroke.

I'm not stuck in my ways, I just understand how easy it is to believe something helps when it doesn't.

Then you're not listening. I'm smart enough and a good enough golfer to know the difference between

believing something works and knowing it works, and having experienced it working.

The best player in the world is still human and is just as likely to fall into this trap of conjecture as anyone else is.

Right. I guess Tiger Woods is just silly and you of all people have the world figured out. C'mon, buddy, do you realize how silly what you're saying sounds?

And learning your abc's to get better at algebra does not work.. despite the fact that both use letters.

Nobody's recommending drills of any such form. Nobody's suggesting practicing putting with one hand will improve your driving. Be serious.

I'm done. Go ahead and prattle on, but again it's clear to me you cannot be convinced.