Jack Nicklaus Endorses Romney, Mitt calls Jack “Greatest athlete of the 20th century.”

[newtogolf]

What's killing education isn't government, it's labor unions.  Unions served a purpose in the past to protect people from unsafe work environments.  Today they serve no purpose but to exist for their own members profits.

No one should be guaranteed a job, teachers who aren't good at their job should be fired, but because of unions they can't be, regardless of performance.  Here in NY you can't fire a teacher that has tenure unless they assault or sleep with a student, not to mention their raises are guaranteed by the contract the unions force down the taxpayers throats.  Unions are holding our childrens education hostage, not the democrats or republicans.

Originally Posted by Subaroo

It's fine to have racist/homophobic/ignorant views, and negative attitudes towards education.  But keep them to yourself, don't be a legislator.  The problem with the Republican party is that their policies are driven by these beliefs, these views, and these fears of the other.  Thankfully, the truth is that the Republican party is getting older and the country is moving forward, eventually the old generation will die and some of your ideas will die with them.  In the meantime, stop pretending to be the civilized ones.

[Lihu]

What's killing education isn't government, it's labor unions.  Unions served a purpose in the past to protect people from unsafe work environments.  Today they serve no purpose but to exist for their own members profits.  No one should be guaranteed a job, teachers who aren't good at their job should be fired, but because of unions they can't be, regardless of performance.  Here in NY you can't fire a teacher that has tenure unless they assault or sleep with a student, not to mention their raises are guaranteed by the contract the unions force down the taxpayers throats.  Unions are holding our childrens education hostage, not the democrats or republicans.

Here in California, it is much the same. Teachers can't lose their jobs even when they are really poor at teaching. Many get tenure, because they are good at politics :-(

[David in FL]

What's killing education isn't government, it's labor unions.  Unions served a purpose in the past to protect people from unsafe work environments.  Today they serve no purpose but to exist for their own members profits.  No one should be guaranteed a job, teachers who aren't good at their job should be fired, but because of unions they can't be, regardless of performance.  Here in NY you can't fire a teacher that has tenure unless they assault or sleep with a student, not to mention their raises are guaranteed by the contract the unions force down the taxpayers throats.  Unions are holding our childrens education hostage, not the democrats or republicans.

You're clearly racist, homophobic, and hate kids and puppies.

[Subaroo]

Originally Posted by Leftygolfer

Wait, I'm not a racist, I'm young, I have no issues with gays and them having the same rights as opposite sex couples, but I'm conservative?  The things that matter to me are the economy, the economy, the economy.  And the left does nothing to grow wealth.  They (most) think its wrong to be rich and they don't deserve it and don't pay there fair share.  But the facts are that the top 10% pay 80% of the taxes.

And who was in office during the civil rights era?  Dixie Crats, there not racist.  Only evil republicans.   Go Obama.

70-80%, but that is because the top 10% control 80% of the nation's wealth.  They should be paying the majority of taxes.  But even based on this, the tax is effectively proportional, if not regressive.  That is inherently unfair.  Our tax system is set up to be progressive, but functionally it does not operate that way. That is why liberals are upset.  Not because people are rich, but because those who are rich have the means to take advantage and game the system.  We are only asking that we all play by the rules, that the rules are fair, and that those who disagree with us do so by using proper grammar.

[Subaroo]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

What's killing education isn't government, it's labor unions.  Unions served a purpose in the past to protect people from unsafe work environments.  Today they serve no purpose but to exist for their own members profits.

No one should be guaranteed a job, teachers who aren't good at their job should be fired, but because of unions they can't be, regardless of performance.  Here in NY you can't fire a teacher that has tenure unless they assault or sleep with a student, not to mention their raises are guaranteed by the contract the unions force down the taxpayers throats.  Unions are holding our childrens education hostage, not the democrats or republicans.

bllleeehh...  I have to partially agree with this.  I'm a fourth year university student, two semesters from obtaining my teaching license in the state of Kansas.  I come from a family of educators, and through my professors, family, and fellow students, this topic comes up a lot.

While I think that labor unions have done, and continue to do, great things for this country, I have mixed feelings about teachers unions.  They do serve a genuine and responsible purpose.  Teaching is a profession with many variables and requires a lot of flexibility and freedom, and tenure protects and enables good teachers to be able to find the most effective ways to teach.  But tenure is also abused by many teachers as well, and I don't think anyone could disagree with that.

Research has shown that the most significant factor in a quality education is the effectiveness of the teacher, but the problem of poor teachers in the US does not rest solely with the teachers unions.  Most of the top performing countries are even more heavily unionized than they are here.  To elevate education across the board, we need to elevate the profession.  We need to attract better applicants to university programs and make obtaining a teaching license harder.  Teachers also need to be paid more, not by merit pay , but by the amount of training one has.

And I hate the back and forth over education funding.  The US already outspends tons of other countries on education, and we still do worse.  The problem is not that we don't spend enough on education, it is that we don't spend the money well.  Throwing money at our current system might make a little difference, but it will do nothing to improve it to a level to make us competitive.

That being said Republicans, doesn't mean we can cut funding to public schools and invest all our money private schools, that doesn't do us much better.  The solution with the money thing is to apply it more evenly to public schools.  Some schools are great, others are crap, and it has to do with the distribution of funds.  Everyone deserves a good education, and it's really not fair to the students that their level of education is based on how much money their parents or neighbors have.

The fact is, most great education systems around the world are public and unionized .

I support unions on the basis that I support increased workers rights, but I really don't know enough about how other unions operate so I'll have to stop my comments here.  I know your beef is with organized labor and you were just using teachers union as the spotlight, so I'll agree with that part, the teachers union really grinds my gears sometimes.  I wish we could have the conversation about unions without including teachers unions in the debate... the union is definitely needed, but every now and then I just want to scream "f*** you, teachers union!"

Sorry if my education rant was off topic, lets get back to fighting along party lines again

[Mr. Desmond]

I haven't contributed here in almost a week -

I think the President is important because he selects the next Supreme Court Justice - we have a conservative court already. And it is a reactionary conservative court

Obama, if elected, would compromise on another grand bargain to do a deal on deficit reduction. He'd reform ObamaCare to make it less costly.

Romney - don't see him compromising. Health Care? You're on your own. And those who have issues? Good luck obtaining or affording health insurance. Might as well buy that plot...

[David in FL]

I'm a fourth year university student, two semesters from obtaining my teaching license in the state of Kansas.   Teachers also need to be paid more, not by merit pay , but by the amount of training one has.

No comment, I just wanted to make sure everyone got the opportunity to read this again.

[hanalei]

Why no comment? He's obviously a moron despite his education. He needs be a janitor paid by merit.

[David in FL]

Why no comment? He's obviously a moron despite his education. He needs be a janitor paid by merit.

I've learned that he's incapable of intelligent discourse without resorting to insults, so I refuse to engage him. That post puts everything into perspective though. Age, maturity, life experience, etc....

[Subaroo]

I'm a fourth year university student, two semesters from obtaining my teaching license in the state of Kansas.

Teachers also need to be paid more, not by merit pay, but by the amount of training one has.

Originally Posted by David in FL

No comment, I just wanted to make sure everyone got the opportunity to read this again.

Why did you include the second sentence?  Do you disagree with the merit pay part?  I don't want to assume anything so I'll let you explain before I respond.

Originally Posted by David in FL

I've learned that he's incapable of intelligent discourse without resorting to insults, so I refuse to engage him.

That post puts everything into perspective though. Age, maturity, life experience, etc....

And you don't know how old I am.

[newtogolf]

I'm glad that you provided a rational response, as it shows you do understand the problems our children and future generations face with regards to education.  I think we agree more than we disagree but to ensure quality education you have to even the playing field salary wise so that good public school teachers will want to teach where they are needed and not where the pay is best.  When you don't, you encourage caring parents to fight for voucher systems to send their children to private schools.

In the more poverty stricken areas of NY teachers make up to 75% less (as do police officers BTW) than teachers that teach public school in the richest areas of Nassau and Suffolk county.  This is not decided by republicans or democrats it's decided by unions who sell out their members in the poor parts of town so that their peers in the rich areas can cash out.  In my town, the average teachers salary is $90,000 in some areas of Queens and the Bronx, it's $30,000.  I doubt the teachers here on Long Island are 3x better than the teachers in the city but that's how they are paid.

I'd prefer to see the salaries normalized, say $60,000 for all teachers in NY state and eliminate tenure.  Then allow teachers based on merit and student performance achieve annual increases based on their overall performance rather than the salary their union can negotiate.  We can also weed out the poor teachers and replace them with new teachers that want to teach.  This would encourage teachers to work harder to motivate the students in not just the high income areas but also in poverty stricken areas that need the help the most.  Unfortunately the unions aren't invested in our childrens education only the dues their members pay based on the percentage of their income.

Originally Posted by Subaroo

bllleeehh...  I have to partially agree with this.  I'm a fourth year university student, two semesters from obtaining my teaching license in the state of Kansas.  I come from a family of educators, and through my professors, family, and fellow students, this topic comes up a lot.

While I think that labor unions have done, and continue to do, great things for this country, I have mixed feelings about teachers unions.  They do serve a genuine and responsible purpose.  Teaching is a profession with many variables and requires a lot of flexibility and freedom, and tenure protects and enables good teachers to be able to find the most effective ways to teach.  But tenure is also abused by many teachers as well, and I don't think anyone could disagree with that.

Research has shown that the most significant factor in a quality education is the effectiveness of the teacher, but the problem of poor teachers in the US does not rest solely with the teachers unions.  Most of the top performing countries are even more heavily unionized than they are here.  To elevate education across the board, we need to elevate the profession.  We need to attract better applicants to university programs and make obtaining a teaching license harder.  Teachers also need to be paid more, not by merit pay, but by the amount of training one has.

And I hate the back and forth over education funding.  The US already outspends tons of other countries on education, and we still do worse.  The problem is not that we don't spend enough on education, it is that we don't spend the money well.  Throwing money at our current system might make a little difference, but it will do nothing to improve it to a level to make us competitive.

That being said Republicans, doesn't mean we can cut funding to public schools and invest all our money private schools, that doesn't do us much better.  The solution with the money thing is to apply it more evenly to public schools.  Some schools are great, others are crap, and it has to do with the distribution of funds.  Everyone deserves a good education, and it's really not fair to the students that their level of education is based on how much money their parents or neighbors have.

The fact is, most great education systems around the world are public and unionized.

I support unions on the basis that I support increased workers rights, but I really don't know enough about how other unions operate so I'll have to stop my comments here.  I know your beef is with organized labor and you were just using teachers union as the spotlight, so I'll agree with that part, the teachers union really grinds my gears sometimes.  I wish we could have the conversation about unions without including teachers unions in the debate... the union is definitely needed, but every now and then I just want to scream "f*** you, teachers union!"

Sorry if my education rant was off topic, lets get back to fighting along party lines again

[David in FL]

Why did you include the second sentence?  Do you disagree with the merit pay part?  I don't want to assume anything so I'll let you explain before I respond.

I wanted to specifically highlight that you value education over actual performance, as do so many in academia. You're right. I made an assumption about your age that may be inaccurate. If it is, I apologize.

[Subaroo]

Originally Posted by David in FL

I wanted to specifically highlight that you value education over actual performance, as do so many in academia.

You're right. I made an assumption about your age that may be inaccurate. If it is, I apologize.

Better training and education will yield better results, at least in teaching.  Schools need to be encouraged to develop their teachers through things like collaboration, conferences, further education, and peer monitoring.  That will produce better teachers.  Get better at your job and we'll pay you more.  Not, you better make sure your students do well on this test.

Teaching is an odd profession where it's kinda hard to evaluate performance.. at least by test results.  It creates a whole bunch of problems.  And what about this.. my father-in-law just received his second master's degree in (something like, I can't remember exactly...) Early Childhood Special Education.  He teaches special education students, half of his students can't even take tests.

[Subaroo]

Originally Posted by newtogolf

We can also weed out the poor teachers and replace them with new teachers that want to teach.  This would encourage teachers to work harder to motivate the students in not just the high income areas but also in poverty stricken areas that need the help the most.

This is what other countries are great at, weeding out bad teachers.  In other countries teachers almost self police.  It is such a sought after profession and requires so much investment to get there that those who do make it take it very seriously.

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Unfortunately the unions aren't invested in our childrens education only the dues their members pay based on the percentage of their income.

Agreed.  Teachers Unions are in the interests of teachers, not students.

[phillyk]

Originally Posted by Subaroo

Better training and education will yield better results, at least in teaching.  Schools need to be encouraged to develop their teachers through things like collaboration, conferences, further education, and peer monitoring.  That will produce better teachers.  Get better at your job and we'll pay you more.  Not, you better make sure your students do well on this test.

Teaching is an odd profession where it's kinda hard to evaluate performance.. at least by test results.  It creates a whole bunch of problems.  And what about this.. my father-in-law just received his second master's degree in (something like, I can't remember exactly...) Early Childhood Special Education.  He teaches special education students, half of his students can't even take tests.

Teachers already do collaborate a lot to try and figure out ways to encourage education.  I do agree though, that there are teachers that ignore these collaborations and don't use teaching methods that produce results.

The main problem is encouraging the kids to reach their potential as early as possible and encouraging their growth through school.  They need to learn early how to become a growing student.  But, many kids lack the encouragement both at school and at home.  Teachers have the obligation to teach and try to grow the students but so do the parents at home.

[newtogolf]

That's a great point philly, but while all jobs require some passion to succeed, teaching requires more.  Students are very perceptive to how passionate the teacher is towards teaching and being in a school environment.  I have two children that are both honor students and they know from the first week which are passionate and which are there merely to collect a paycheck.

As a business owner I see the same thing.  I'm passionate about my business, and my employees share that passion and it shows in the level of customer service they provide my customers.  If I went to work every day looking miserable and bored my attitude would eventually rub off on them and customer service would suffer.

Teachers that seek out ways to make education fun and exciting get the best results from students.  As parents we need to ensure our children are doing what the class requires them but we can't make them like a class or a teacher if the teacher isn't doing their job properly.

Originally Posted by phillyk

Teachers already do collaborate a lot to try and figure out ways to encourage education.  I do agree though, that there are teachers that ignore these collaborations and don't use teaching methods that produce results.

The main problem is encouraging the kids to reach their potential as early as possible and encouraging their growth through school.  They need to learn early how to become a growing student.  But, many kids lack the encouragement both at school and at home.  Teachers have the obligation to teach and try to grow the students but so do the parents at home.

[Subaroo]

Originally Posted by Subaroo

Better training and education will yield better results, at least in teaching.  Schools need to be encouraged to develop their teachers through things like collaboration, conferences, further education, and peer monitoring.  That will produce better teachers.  Get better at your job and we'll pay you more.  Not, you better make sure your students do well on this test.

Teaching is an odd profession where it's kinda hard to evaluate performance.. at least by test results.  It creates a whole bunch of problems.  And what about this.. my father-in-law just received his second master's degree in (something like, I can't remember exactly...) Early Childhood Special Education.  He teaches special education students, half of his students can't even take tests.

...and P.E. teachers, and Art teachers, and Music teachers and Shop teachers, and Photo teachers...

[hanalei]

Guess were going have to agree to disagree. Education and training mean nothing if u cant get students engaged and enthusiastic about learning the material at hand. Versus the teacher with the PhD calling out 'Bueller?' for 5 minutes. Some of the worst college teachers I've encountered had PhDs in Chemistry and Math, they know everything about their subject, buy can't teach a dog to sit...