Why do forward hands make the ball draw?

[johnclayton1982]

In the S&T book, they describe pushing your hands forward as encouraging a draw shot shape.  I get why this would be with stuff like back ball position, etc... but why forward hands?  I've tried it at the range, and it works, but I don't understand why.  Why does putting your hands forward in setup promote a draw?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

In the S&T book, they describe pushing your hands forward as encouraging a draw shot shape.  I get why this would be with stuff like back ball position, etc... but why forward hands?  I've tried it at the range, and it works, but I don't understand why.  Why does putting your hands forward in setup promote a draw?

Here's my guess:

Hands forward at address simply encourages the same at impact, which leads to hitting on the downswing, which promotes a draw?

[Chas]

Why would hitting on the downswing, in and of itself, cause a draw? (all else being equal) Erik?

[Golfingdad]

Originally Posted by Chas

Why would hitting on the downswing, in and of itself, cause a draw? (all else being equal)

Erik?

I know I'm not Erik, but just to clarify what I said ... by itself it won't promote any such thing, but if you have a good in-square-in swing plane then catching it on the downswing means your club is still traveling out ... which is a requirement of a push draw.

[cipher]

I believe, because you have to come from the inside when doing it.  You cannot have your hands forward and come OTT very easily from what I understand...

[johnclayton1982]

Quote:

I believe, because you have to come from the inside when doing it.  You cannot have your hands forward and come OTT very easily from what I understand...

But isn't the path of the clubface what matters when going inside/out?  It seems like that would be uneffected by where your hands start....

[cipher]

Originally Posted by johnclayton1982

But isn't the path of the clubface what matters when going inside/out?  It seems like that would be uneffected by where your hands start....

Not sure if I understand all of it fully but the clubface seems to be what detirmines the initial direction and the club path seems to have more to do with the side spin...?  I think if your hands start forward it is easier to return there at impact.

See this thread.

http://thesandtrap.com/t/56453/ball-flight-laws-and-misinformation

This is a great video as well:

[jamo]

Why would hitting on the downswing, in and of itself, cause a draw? (all else being equal) Erik?

When you hit the ball on the downswing, you are making contact before the club reaches the vertical low-point of its arc. At that vertical low-point, the club is also as far in front of your body as it will be (as far in the horizontal direction as it will be). That means that if you hit the ball on the downswing, the club will still be traveling away from your body (normal to your stance). So if the club is still moving down, it's still moving out. Thus the in-to-out contact. Pretty sure I have that right.

[johnclayton1982]

I understand the ball flight laws.  Thats not the issue.  I don't understand why hands forward makes any predictable difference in ballflight.

Quote:

When you hit the ball on the downswing, you are making contact before the club reaches the vertical low-point of its arc. At that vertical low-point, the club is also as far in front of your body as it will be (as far in the horizontal direction as it will be). That means that if you hit the ball on the downswing, the club will still be traveling away from your body (normal to your stance). So if the club is still moving down, it's still moving out. Thus the in-to-out contact. Pretty sure I have that right.

I don't know.  You can certainly hit a fade or slice hitting on the downswing.  By your logic, slicers always hit on the upswing, which is demonstrably false.  I don't see the connection between making contact on the downswing and a draw - I can understand earleir versus later in the downswing, but the clubhead position is unchanged, so why would it be earlier in the clubs path?

[jamo]

I understand the ball flight laws.  Thats not the issue.  I don't understand why hands forward makes any predictable difference in ballflight. I don't know.  You can certainly hit a fade or slice hitting on the downswing.  By your logic, slicers always hit on the upswing, which is demonstrably false.  I don't see the connection between making contact on the downswing and a draw - I can understand earleir versus later in the downswing, but the clubhead position is unchanged, so why would it be earlier in the clubs path?

That's assuming a "neutral" swing. You can always swing left or right to adjust. Swinging left (out-to-in) shifts everything to the left, producing a slice. And vice versa.

[uttexas]

Restating what Jamo posted. Moving the hands forward moves the downswing arc and the low point more forward=promotes striking the ball with the clubhead traveling more in to out. When the ball is on the ground, you want to strike the ball before the low point. The clubhead is moving down and out until the low point is reached. So, if you strike the ball before the low point in the center of the clubface (for a righty) the clubhead path is moving down and to the right. So for a righty, if the clubface is more left (closed) than the path (to the right), the ball will curve to the left (draw) Moving the hands forward shifts the path more to the right (for a righty), thus promoting a draw. [VIDEO]http://youtu.be/kK8sW5nUFbQ[/VIDEO]

[Chas]

When you hit the ball on the downswing, you are making contact before the club reaches the vertical low-point of its arc. At that vertical low-point, the club is also as far in front of your body as it will be (as far in the horizontal direction as it will be). That means that if you hit the ball on the downswing, the club will still be traveling away from your body (normal to your stance). So if the club is still moving down, it's still moving out. Thus the in-to-out contact. Pretty sure I have that right.

That makes sense, I hadn't really thought about it. So no matter the initial trajectory, which would depend on club face angle at contact, if you make contact on the downswing you're hitting in-to-out, ergo the draw. Interesting. Tx for the clear explanation. I'm sipping Kalua and I still got it .... I think. Now I just have to make it happen.

[mvmac]

Good topic and lots of good info provided by Jamo and uttexas.  Yes the hands forward helps promote a draw, because it allows the swing direction to be more out.  Assuming a neutral or right ward baseline at address.  Meaning aligning your body, hips and shoulders, at or right of the target at address.  Think of it like you're standing in the middle of a large hula hoop.   You can obviously hit fades with the hands forward, like Nicklaus, Couples and Trevino.  But they all set their baseline to the left, aimed their body to the left, hula hoop is left.  Important to understand that they all still hit out at the ball, not across it.  Their "hola hoop" was far enough left to produce the fade.  There's another way to hit the fade with the handle forward but nobody really does it lol

Most golfers, especially slicers, don't have enough shaft or hosel lean at impact.  When the club head overtakes the hands, "flip" and chicken wing, the path rotates across the ball.  Which is why we don't like the description of "turning the toe over" to hit a draw, because it can tend to back up the handle and will in fact produce a fade.

Here's some stuff that might help picture what I'm talking about

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Chas

That makes sense, I hadn't really thought about it. So no matter the initial trajectory, which would depend on club face angle at contact, if you make contact on the downswing you're hitting in-to-out, ergo the draw. Interesting.

No. You're hitting in to out relative to your baseline, but if you rotate the baseline well to the left (say 10° left), you can hit down twelve degrees with a six-iron (that's an ungodly amount down) and still be swinging slightly left of the target.

Down and thus out is only relative to the baseline of the plane. The black stick in the video.