In general, why is pace of play better in the UK?

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by utztech

I don't think carts are inherently slower, but if you get stuck riding with a slow player, it makes both of you slow.

One of the guys in my normal foursome is quite a bit slower than the rest of us.  I have been riding with him the last few rounds and I have found it frustrating.  I often grab a couple of clubs and end up walking to my ball and then the green while he is doing his thing.  So maybe people walk more in the UK and one slow person does not make for two slow people.

I have also found that it is much easier for the one slow person in the group to make everyone else subconsciously play more slowly than it is for the slow person to subconsciously play faster.  I don't know why.

I prefer walking (when the course is not set up for a billy goat), but do think that an EFFICIENT RIDER is faster than and EFFICIENT WALKER.  I also think that there are a higher % of efficient walkers than efficient riders.

I think you make a good point about one slow rider making the other guy slower (especially if the second guy is anchored to the cart).

I might subconsciously play slower with a slower player BUT NOT when there is a group waiting behind us.

[David in FL]

Originally Posted by MEfree

I prefer walking (when the course is not set up for a billy goat), but do think that an EFFICIENT RIDER is faster than and EFFICIENT WALKER.  I also think that there are a higher % of efficient walkers than efficient riders.

I think you make a good point about one slow rider making the other guy slower (especially if the second guy is anchored to the cart).

Exactly right......a cart moves faster than a person walks, so as long as there's no loss in efficiency at the ball, the same efficient person(s) will ALWAYS be faster riding.  It's simple velocity/distance math.  Two fast golfers riding together?  Get out of the way.  We can get around 18 in 2:15 or so without really pushing it all that hard.

Beyond that though, an efficient DRIVER can absolutely speed up a slower player.  As an example, I play very quickly.  I'll drive and always drop a slow riding partner off at his ball first, even if he's ahead of me.  I'll then scoot back to my ball, hit, and go pick him up, usually just as he's FINALLY finishing his shot......

Just don't let the slower of the two drive, or you're toast!

[thescarecrow]

Being neither US or UK based is an  Interesting read.  Slow play is universal. Down here we play a lot of stableford and par rounds with social rounds  not handicapped,by which generally speeds play. Played a stroke round yesterday taking 4 hr 20 min {walked} considered long .

Majority of players walk , ironically i find all the young kids hire the carts with blokes over 35 walking.

Personally, i enjoy the walk, health wise with better interaction with playing partners..........from Melbourne. Australia

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

I prefer walking (when the course is not set up for a billy goat), but do think that an EFFICIENT RIDER is faster than and EFFICIENT WALKER.  I also think that there are a higher % of efficient walkers than efficient riders.

I think you make a good point about one slow rider making the other guy slower (especially if the second guy is anchored to the cart).

Exactly right......a cart moves faster than a person walks, so as long as there's no loss in efficiency at the ball, the same efficient person(s) will ALWAYS be faster riding.  It's simple velocity/distance math.

Except you're forgetting a few factors. Carts aren't allowed within a certain distance of the green (30-50 yards, depending on the course.) That means extra walking from the cart path to where your ball is.

Also, many green to tee walks can be more direct walking than riding - with that, plus the time spent putting your putter (and possibly another club or two) back into the bag before you can take off in a cart (when walking with a push cart you can do that while walking), I'm often beating my riding partners to the next tee, even when I'm the last to leave the green.

Additionally, taking a cart means a good chance that at least one person on at least one hole will need to go back because he left some clubs at a previous hole.

Are all those factors enough to make a cart slower than a walker? If both are playing at maximum efficiency, no. But I'm just saying it's not simple math.

[David in FL]

Except you're forgetting a few factors. Carts aren't allowed within a certain distance of the green (30-50 yards, depending on the course.) That means extra walking from the cart path to where your ball is. Also, many green to tee walks can be more direct walking than riding - with that, plus the time spent putting your putter (and possibly another club or two) back into the bag before you can take off in a cart (when walking with a push cart you can do that while walking), I'm often beating my riding partners to the next tee, even when I'm the last to leave the green. Additionally, taking a cart means a good chance that at least one person on at least one hole will need to go back because he left some clubs at a previous hole.   Are all those factors enough to make a cart slower than a walker? If both are playing at maximum efficiency, no. But I'm just saying it's not simple math.

Not forgetting anything. I imagine I've played a thousand rounds of golf riding, and another thousand walking. In my experience, all things being equal, riding is faster unless there are course conditions that limit carts to cart path only.

[sacm3bill]

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by sacm3bill

Except you're forgetting a few factors. Carts aren't allowed within a certain distance of the green (30-50 yards, depending on the course.) That means extra walking from the cart path to where your ball is.

Also, many green to tee walks can be more direct walking than riding - with that, plus the time spent putting your putter (and possibly another club or two) back into the bag before you can take off in a cart (when walking with a push cart you can do that while walking), I'm often beating my riding partners to the next tee, even when I'm the last to leave the green.

Additionally, taking a cart means a good chance that at least one person on at least one hole will need to go back because he left some clubs at a previous hole.

Are all those factors enough to make a cart slower than a walker? If both are playing at maximum efficiency, no. But I'm just saying it's not simple math.

Not forgetting anything. I imagine I've played a thousand rounds of golf riding, and another thousand walking. In my experience, all things being equal, riding is faster unless there are course conditions that limit carts to cart path only.

Ok, you didn't "forget" anything but you did fail to mention some things. :-) At any rate, my point was just that it's not as simple as "A cart moves faster than a person walks."

[David in FL]

Ok, you didn't "forget" anything but you did fail to mention some things. :-) At any rate, my point was just that it's not as simple as "A cart moves faster than a person walks."

In my experience, it really is. Once you get to the ball, it's all the same routine, with little difference. I'm sorry, it doesn't take any longer to put my putter in my bag when I'm riding than it does when I walk. Having said that, a cart will not make a slow player fast. The only cure for a slow player is a boot up their ass....... or maybe a bullet in the head! ;-)

[AmazingWhacker]

In my experience, 2 walkers are faster than 2 riders in 1 cart. That's just been my experience - maybe they were all inefficient drivers. Now, if everybody had thier own cart, that would really speed things up.

[ghalfaire]

You had to know this would morph into a slow play thread sooner or later.

[David in FL]

[INDENT][/INDENT][quote name="ghalfaire" url="/t/62841/in-general-why-is-pace-of-play-better-in-the-uk/18#post_780401"]You had to know this would morph into a slow play thread sooner or later.  :offtopic: [/quote] Seems to me that the topic of the thread IS about the pace of play......

[David in FL]

In my experience, 2 walkers are faster than 2 riders in 1 cart. That's just been my experience - maybe they were all inefficient drivers. Now, if everybody had thier own cart, that would really speed things up.

I'm curious. How often do you ride?

[rustyredcab]

I think the earlier posters idea that players pick up speeds up play a lot. When the caddies were betting on our match, they would walk off the green when the hole was over even as we Americans were still putting out. Message received. (As a metaphor, when I play Euchre, when the one team has one trick and the other has three, we throw in the last trick because the points are already decided and there is no point difference between a 4-1 and a 3-2 trick count. Some people still really want to play out that last trick. They are to Euchre what many Americans are to golf.)

I also think US players spend too much time calculating exact yardages and trying to judge wind when they should be swinging -- I'm guilty. When I play in winds gusting from 10-25 MPH and I'm 140 yards out, knowing the exact yardage ("Is it 139 or 143?") does not matter that much to the actual result.

The experienced caddies I had in Scotland tended to say things like, "It is a full 8-iron, about 140 yards..." instead of giving me an exact yardage. Both the caddie and I know that a "full 8-iron" can vary more than 5 yards when hit very well. Factor in the changes in yardage that are harder to predict because of wind and do I really need to have the yardage stepped off the the exact yardage? Not with my game.

[Datsyuk]

Fewer carts, smaller groups and picking up are all factors. Speaking just of carts though, I treat fast cart players like shooting a round under my index in competition. It's rare. Not the norm. the odds around here of finding a quick player who carts paired with another one on a day where they have somewhere to go is like shooting a net 65 under pressure. It's possible but not likely.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

I also think US players spend too much time calculating exact yardages and trying to judge wind when they should be swinging -- I'm guilty. When I play in winds gusting from 10-25 MPH and I'm 140 yards out, knowing the exact yardage ("Is it 139 or 143?") does not matter that much to the actual result.

I think it really depends where you play and at what level your game is.  Growing up playing a course in S Cal near the ocean, the wind was very predictable- 95% of the days consisted of no wind in the morning and a steady onshore breeze in the afternoon.  I almost never backed off a shot because of a change in wind.  Now I play in the mountains and I have had a 1-2 club wind do a complete 180* shift from the time I pulled the club from my bag to the time I got over the ball.

When I am mentally sharp, I will back off and switch clubs when this happens...I hit a high ball and my irons go a reasonable predictable yardage, so I think judging the wind correctly makes a difference in my scoring.  OTOH, if I hit a low ball inconsistent yardages, then it probably wouldn`t make much of a difference.

I have noticed a few times this year where a PGA Tour caddy told his player to stop while over the ball because of a shift in wind.  At first I thought this was ridiculous but then I realized that these guys are mentally strong enough to execute the shot they want even after being interrupted like that and that the shift in wind DOES make a difference at their level, so why not back off and make sure you are hitting the correct shot for the current conditions.

When riding a cart, I will typically take 3 clubs with me to my ball- usually pulling them as the guy I am riding with prepares to hit his shot and walking forward to my ball while his ball is in the air.  Going back to the OP, this is how I was taught to play (although I mostly walked as a kid) so I do think that your background and training influence your speed of play.  Teach a kid good habits at anything and it is likely that they will continue these good habits as an adult.

[rustyredcab]

" .I hit a high ball and my irons go a reasonable predictable yardage, so I think judging the wind correctly makes a difference in my scoring."

I'm not questioning the logic of judging the wind before hitting. I'm saying, when all factors are in place, knowing the EXACT yardage to the pin is not needed for most of us. Knowing it is about 140 with a one club wind off the left is likely good enough and walking off yardages and fiddling with GPS and waiting on a laser confirmation is another factor in Americans playing slower than Scotts.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by rustyredcab

".I hit a high ball and my irons go a reasonable predictable yardage, so I think judging the wind correctly makes a difference in my scoring."

I'm not questioning the logic of judging the wind before hitting. I'm saying, when all factors are in place, knowing the EXACT yardage to the pin is not needed for most of us. Knowing it is about 140 with a one club wind off the left is likely good enough and walking off yardages and fiddling with GPS and waiting on a laser confirmation is another factor in Americans playing slower than Scotts.

It depends by what you mean exact yardage...I don`t own a laser, but most who do are pretty quick with it.  If you know what you are doing and the sprinklers are marked then getting yardage to the middle to within a few yards is not that hard or time consuming if you know what you are doing (i.e. step it off as you walk up to your ball).   I guess what I am saying is that much more time is typically wasted elsewhere.

[JerseyThursday]

Originally Posted by chilly

I played a round on Saturday and it was just unbelievable how slow the guys played for no reason, at one point there were three guys...THREE...with rangefinders on a tee.   So two guys are wasting time instead of being ready to go.   They'd both ride in their cart to every ball, instead of dropping a guy off and both hitting in sequence where it made sense...bad cart positioning around the greens...just plain frustrating to watch.

That’s funny.
I’ve seen the opposite play out also where a foursome will have one poor guy who is the only one with a range finder. People will be yelling out: “John, what’s my distance?” John has to stop what he’s doing and get a distance for everyone in his group on practically every shot...

[AmazingWhacker]

Originally Posted by David in FL

I'm curious. How often do you ride?

Only when I play with my wife - so perhaps about once a month.  Carts are especially bad when players spray balls all over the place - if 2 players hit poor tee shots - let's say 1 goes 150 yards to the right deep rough and the other goes 225 yards into the left deep rough - it's just faster for each player to walk directly to his/her ball.  And it also means fewer lost balls and less time spent looking since 1. you are more likely to spot your ball while walking and 2. you don't forget where it is while you are searching for player 1's ball.