Aerated Greens and Fairways

[MEfree]

With the season coming to an end, I have been playing a lot of golf on aerated greens and fairways.

When your ball comes to rest in an aeration hole on the green or fairway, do you have to play it from the hole?  Assume that the greens have been sanded, but not the fairways.

Today, in the fairway or short rough my ball had an aeration plug directly behind and touching my ball...no way to move the plug without the ball moving.  What are my options?

Thanks.

[rogolf]

Originally Posted by MEfree

With the season coming to an end, I have been playing a lot of golf on aerated greens and fairways.

When your ball comes to rest in an aeration hole on the green or fairway, do you have to play it from the hole?  Assume that the greens have been sanded, but not the fairways.

Today, in the fairway or short rough my ball had an aeration plug directly behind and touching my ball...no way to move the plug without the ball moving.  What are my options?

Thanks.

There needs to be a local Rule in order to obtain relief for aeration holes through the green - they are not "holes made by a greenkeeper".

The aeration plug is a loose impediment, same as an acorn, rock or a divot.  Play the ball as it lies, take your chances moving the loose impediment, or deem it unplayable (with the one stroke penalty).

[Valleygolfer]

I say rules wise you play it where it lies unless the course posts a lift and replace or preferred lie. Me, I move it and use the rounds as practice and count greens as two putts max.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

With the season coming to an end, I have been playing a lot of golf on aerated greens and fairways.

When your ball comes to rest in an aeration hole on the green or fairway, do you have to play it from the hole?  Assume that the greens have been sanded, but not the fairways.

Today, in the fairway or short rough my ball had an aeration plug directly behind and touching my ball...no way to move the plug without the ball moving.  What are my options?

Thanks.

In  a competition the committee has the option of allowing relief from Aeration holes.  In casual play your group is its own committee,so it's up to you to decide.  The course doesn't have to post anything.   Because of that allowance, the guys I play with always call that rule when we play at that time of year.  Properly maintained greens shouldn't be a problem because the holes should be filled with sand.  In the fairway we take relief.  My Men's Club always used the local rule if we had a tournament scheduled while the fairways were still significantly perforated.

The aeration plug is a loose impediment, treated the same as any other loose impediment.  Just another hazard of hitting from the rough.  In the fairway they should be picked up and removed as part of the maintenance process.

HOWEVER...  I don't return such scores for handicap because I don't consider the course to be in proper playing condition to play to its rating.

Unlike some players on this forum, I don't mind playing an aerated course.  I enjoy the challenge of golf regardless of how the course is presented, as long as I don't have to play a premium price to play it.  My home course knocks off a buck per nine for at least a week after punching the greens, not a big break, but they used to not give any discount.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

In casual play your group is its own committee,so it's up to you to decide.  The course doesn't have to post anything.   Because of that allowance, the guys I play with always call that rule when we play at that time of year.  Properly maintained greens shouldn't be a problem because the holes should be filled with sand.  In the fairway we take relief.  My Men's Club always used the local rule if we had a tournament scheduled while the fairways were still significantly perforated.

HOWEVER...  I don't return such scores for handicap because I don't consider the course to be in proper playing condition to play to its rating.

Interesting...so my friend who I was playing a match with told me that you are allowed relief both on the fairways and greens- seems as if he is correct in  a self fulfilling way.

In terms of the holes being sanded on the greens, I think this helps make the hole shallower, but the ball can still be sitting down a bit if the sand has had time to settle or the grass has grown since they sanded it.

So is the player the sole judge as to whether a course is in proper playing condition to play to its rating?  Along these lines, I played a course last week where the fairways were likely in a similar condition to how they are most of the time and sanded/aerated greens that seemed to putt much smoother than the greens I played today.  The only part of the course that seemed inconsistent with how it would typically play was that most/all of the tees were on the front part of the tee box (probably because they had been recently aerated.  Although we were playing the "back" tees, the actual distance we played the course from was shorter than what the backs measure but longer that what the front tees officially measure.  In this case would it be permissible to manually enter a course rating/slope that is between the rating of the front and back tees?

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

In casual play your group is its own committee,so it's up to you to decide.

Another question about this...today, hit my second shot left on Vail GC #8 towards some long grass (with an unseen river a bit further left).  This was my first time playing the course and I did not see any stakes or lines so I hit a provisional.  When I arrived at the approximate location of my ball, I could see the river but was not sure if my ball had made it to the river or stopped in the 1-2 foot tall grass/bushes short of the river.  It seemed obvious to me that this would have been marked as a lateral hazard during the season, but that they had likely taken down the stakes in preparation for the winter.  I relayed these thoughts to my friend who I had a match with and he basically shrugged his shoulders so I went over and played my provisional, getting up and down for a bogey 6 to lose to his par 5. Could we have decided as our own committee that a later hazard started at the edge of the cut line where the short rough turned into 1-2 foot high grass leading into the water?  How does it work if the two committee members disagree?

As it turned out, on 9 the same river continued and we saw a very faint red line painted exactly on the cut line.  I talked to one of the course employees after the round and he confirmed that they had pulled the stakes for the winter and that I was indeed in a later hazard.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

In casual play your group is its own committee,so it's up to you to decide.  The course doesn't have to post anything.   Because of that allowance, the guys I play with always call that rule when we play at that time of year.  Properly maintained greens shouldn't be a problem because the holes should be filled with sand.  In the fairway we take relief.  My Men's Club always used the local rule if we had a tournament scheduled while the fairways were still significantly perforated.

HOWEVER...  I don't return such scores for handicap because I don't consider the course to be in proper playing condition to play to its rating.

Interesting...so my friend who I was playing a match with told me that you are allowed relief both on the fairways and greens- seems as if he is correct in  a self fulfilling way.

In terms of the holes being sanded on the greens, I think this helps make the hole shallower, but the ball can still be sitting down a bit if the sand has had time to settle or the grass has grown since they sanded it.

So is the player the sole judge as to whether a course is in proper playing condition to play to its rating?  Along these lines, I played a course last week where the fairways were likely in a similar condition to how they are most of the time and sanded/aerated greens that seemed to putt much smoother than the greens I played today.  The only part of the course that seemed inconsistent with how it would typically play was that most/all of the tees were on the front part of the tee box (probably because they had been recently aerated.  Although we were playing the "back" tees, the actual distance we played the course from was shorter than what the backs measure but longer that what the front tees officially measure.  In this case would it be permissible to manually enter a course rating/slope that is between the rating of the front and back tees?

If the course isn't set up or playing to it's rating, then don't return the scores.  You can't re-rate it yourself.  That takes a team of people trained for the purpose.  Same as during winter, the course is not playing as it was when rated, so no scores can be returned.  I view it as not really different from a course playing on temporary greens or tees, or other conditions that change the way it plays.  You just have to use your best judgement.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

In casual play your group is its own committee,so it's up to you to decide.

Another question about this...today, hit my second shot left on Vail GC #8 towards some long grass (with an unseen river a bit further left).  This was my first time playing the course and I did not see any stakes or lines so I hit a provisional.  When I arrived at the approximate location of my ball, I could see the river but was not sure if my ball had made it to the river or stopped in the 1-2 foot tall grass/bushes short of the river.  It seemed obvious to me that this would have been marked as a lateral hazard during the season, but that they had likely taken down the stakes in preparation for the winter.  I relayed these thoughts to my friend who I had a match with and he basically shrugged his shoulders so I went over and played my provisional, getting up and down for a bogey 6 to lose to his par 5.  Could we have decided as our own committee that a later hazard started at the edge of the cut line where the short rough turned into 1-2 foot high grass leading into the water?  How does it work if the two committee members disagree?

As it turned out, on 9 the same river continued and we saw a very faint red line painted exactly on the cut line.  I talked to one of the course employees after the round and he confirmed that they had pulled the stakes for the winter and that I was indeed in a later hazard.

If you can't agree, then that's an issue between you.  Nothing that I can think of would resolve that in a non competition situation.  I suppose you could have proceeded as you felt right and then he could have expressed his claim before you played from the next tee (see Rule 2-5).  Then you take the dispute to the management (the closest thing to a committee in this case) after the round and go with what they say.  In that case you would have won the claim and probably saved a stroke.  I don't know if that stroke would have made a difference in the outcome of the hole or of the match without more information.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If the course isn't set up or playing to it's rating, then don't return the scores.  You can't re-rate it yourself.  That takes a team of people trained for the purpose.  Same as during winter, the course is not playing as it was when rated, so no scores can be returned.  I view it as not really different from a course playing on temporary greens or tees, or other conditions that change the way it plays.  You just have to use your best judgement.

It really doesn`t seem that hard to re-rate a course...we were asked to do this in the forward tees experiment and given the yardage guidelines to do so.  That was potentially harder because some people were playing in front of the shortest men`s tees.  In the example I gave, I was playing BETWEEN two sets of rated tees, so I knew the range that the rating should fall in.  Adjusting rating for yardage changes seems much easier than using your best judgement to decide whether a course is playing differently enough to justify not turning in scores.

So it which of the following situations would you NOT turn in a score because the conditions change the way the course plays?  (I know you answered some already, but wanted to try to make as comprehensive a list as possible)

1.  Aerated greens

2.  Aerated fairways

3.  Early season bumpy greens

4.  Early season fairways that are not in good conditions

5.  Wet fairways- not casual water, but much wetter than normal

6.  Rock hard fairways

7.  Wet greens- not casual water, but holding much more than normal

8.  Rock hard greens (either from lack of water or because they are frozen under the surface layer, something I have experienced recently)

9.  Much stronger winds than normal

10.Much lighter winds than normal

11.Much colder temps than normal

12.Much hotter temps than normal

13.Heavy rain, hail or other severe weather

14.Much harder pin placements than normal

15.Much easier pin placements than normal

16.Much longer rough than normal

17.Much shorter rough than normal.

18.Temporary greens

In some cases, I would imagine that it depends on how many holes are affected.  I tend to turn in all my scores except with a lot of temp greens (which I have not encountered in recent years)...is this wrong?

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by MEfree

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If the course isn't set up or playing to it's rating, then don't return the scores.  You can't re-rate it yourself.  That takes a team of people trained for the purpose.  Same as during winter, the course is not playing as it was when rated, so no scores can be returned.  I view it as not really different from a course playing on temporary greens or tees, or other conditions that change the way it plays.  You just have to use your best judgement.

It really doesn`t seem that hard to re-rate a course...we were asked to do this in the forward tees experiment and given the yardage guidelines to do so.  That was potentially harder because some people were playing in front of the shortest men`s tees.  In the example I gave, I was playing BETWEEN two sets of rated tees, so I knew the range that the rating should fall in.  Adjusting rating for yardage changes seems much easier than using your best judgement to decide whether a course is playing differently enough to justify not turning in scores.

So it which of the following situations would you NOT turn in a score because the conditions change the way the course plays?  (I know you answered some already, but wanted to try to make as comprehensive a list as possible)

1.  Aerated greens

2.  Aerated fairways

3.  Early season bumpy greens

4.  Early season fairways that are not in good conditions

5.  Wet fairways- not casual water, but much wetter than normal

6.  Rock hard fairways

7.  Wet greens- not casual water, but holding much more than normal

8.  Rock hard greens (either from lack of water or because they are frozen under the surface layer, something I have experienced recently)

9.  Much stronger winds than normal

10.Much lighter winds than normal

11.Much colder temps than normal

12.Much hotter temps than normal

13.Heavy rain, hail or other severe weather

14.Much harder pin placements than normal

15.Much easier pin placements than normal

16.Much longer rough than normal

17.Much shorter rough than normal.

18.Temporary greens

In some cases, I would imagine that it depends on how many holes are affected.  I tend to turn in all my scores except with a lot of temp greens (which I have not encountered in recent years)...is this wrong?

1, 2, and 18.  The rest are natural conditions, or simply part of course setup.  Even for the first 2, it would depend on the actual condition.  I've played courses which were in close to ordinary condition just a couple of days after aeration, and I've played when it was 2 weeks before it resembled normal conditions.  Any and all natural conditions are just part of the game.  Shorter or longer grass is just part of course setup, as are easy or difficult hole locations.  A properly set up course for day to day play would have 6 easy, 6 medium, and 6 hard, but that might be modified for some competitions.  You can't re-rate a course just because it's playing harder due to weather or setup.

No way you can just re-rate a course because you feel that it should be done.  That would lead to complete mess, and totally invalidate the handicap system.  Much better to not return a score shot under questionable conditions than to try and invent your own ratings, and I'm sure that the USGA and the CGA would agree with me.

From the handicap manual:

Quote:

14-1. Authorized Golf Associations to Rate Courses

All courses must be rated in accordance with USGA approved procedures by a course rating team representing an authorized golf association . A course rating review committee established by the authorized golf association must evaluate each rating. If more than one authorized golf association covers the same territory, a joint rating team is suggested.

A club must never rate its own course.  If a club is unable to obtain Rating from an authorized golf association , it should immediately contact USGA Handicap Department for assistance. A golf club cannot use the USGA Handicap System until it has been issued a USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating by an authorized golf association .

And:

Quote:

a. Temporary Changes

The Handicap Committee must notify the authorized golf association when temporary tees and/or greens are used.  The authorized golf association will decide whether or not scores made under those conditions are to be accepted for handicap purposes, and whether the USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating should be modified temporarily. The Handicap Committee has a responsibility to notify its members that when a hole is not played due to construction, the score for that hole must be par plus any handicap strokes to which the player is entitled. (See Section 4-2 .) The procedure for issuing a temporary rating may be found in "The USGA Course Rating System."

[MEfree]

So based on your quote of the Temporary changes section, it seems it is up to the association and not the player to decide whether a score should count or not.  What is your basis for using your own judgement on whether a score should count?

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

So based on your quote of the Temporary changes section, it seems it is up to the association and not the player to decide whether a score should count or not.  What is your basis for using your own judgement on whether a score should count?

If I play a familiar course and I know that it isn't playing at it's typical level.  I don't analyze things to death like you seem to.  I just make a decision based on 40 years of playing experience.  One round here or there isn't going to break the system or make a significant difference in my handicap.   My only reason for posting those quotes were to show that you aren't allowed to invent your own ratings and that temporary greens are generally a cause for concern.  If I return 98% of my scores, but fail on the other 2%, and if that 2% is a generally random grouping (meaning that I'm not just picking out low scores), then it's never going to have an effect on my handicap.

I'm out of this discussion for now.   You keep finding issues where none actually exist, and I have no more answers.

[MEfree]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If I play a familiar course and I know that it isn't playing at it's typical level.  I don't analyze things to death like you seem to.  I just make a decision based on 40 years of playing experience.  One round here or there isn't going to break the system or make a significant difference in my handicap.   My only reason for posting those quotes were to show that you aren't allowed to invent your own ratings and that temporary greens are generally a cause for concern.  If I return 98% of my scores, but fail on the other 2%, and if that 2% is a generally random grouping (meaning that I'm not just picking out low scores), then it's never going to have an effect on my handicap.

I'm out of this discussion for now.   You keep finding issues where none actually exist, and I have no more answers.

To me, golf is a game governed by a lot of rules.  While I would prefer the rules to be less complicated, I am trying to become as familiar and knowledgeable with them as possible.  This forum has helped with that, but I make an effort to try to sift the good info from the incorrect or misguided.

I think you gave bad information in saying that it is ok for a player to make a judgement call and not post a score because the course is playing at an atypical level.  You also appear to be wrong about it being completely incorrect to for a player to adjust a course rating/slope based on the actual yardage of the tees he played being different than the yardage of the rated tees.

I can`t find anywhere in the USGA Handicap Manual where it says a player can make a judgement call about course condition when deciding to post a score.  In fact, section 7 says exactly the opposite.  The relevant parts seem to be that you are suppose to post all scores during the active season and that it is up to the association to decide if the course condition should preclude a score from being posted:

Section 5 SCORES

Definitions

Within each section, all defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in Section 2 - Definitions.

5-1. Acceptability of Scores

Fair handicapping depends upon full and accurate information regarding a player's potential scoring ability as reflected by a complete scoring record . Every player must be responsible for returning all acceptable scores, as defined in this section.

a. Scores To Post

To post a 9-hole score, the player must play 7 to 12 holes, and at least 7 holes must be played in accordance with the principle of the Rules of Golf.  To post an 18-hole score, the player must play at least 13 holes in accordance with the principles of the Rules of Golf. (See Decisions 5-1a/3 through 5-1a/5 .)

b. Scores on All Courses

Adjusted gross scores from all courses with a USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating made during an active season , both at home and away, must be posted by the player along with the appropriate USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating . (See Decision 5-1b/1 .)

e. Unacceptable Scores

Scores made under the following conditions are not acceptable for handicap purposes and must not be entered in the player's scoring record :

(i) When fewer than seven holes are played;

(ii) When made on a golf course in an area in which an inactive season established by the authorized golf association is in effect;

(iii) When the length of the course is less than 3,000 yards for 18 holes (or less than 1,500 yards for 9 holes);

(iv) When, as a condition of the competition, the maximum number of clubs allowed is less than 14, or types of clubs are limited as, for example, in a competition that allows only iron clubs;

(v) When scores are made on a course with no USGA Course Rating or Slope Rating ;

(vi) When a player uses non-conforming clubs, non-conforming balls, or tees;

(vii) With respect to Rule 14-3 (Rules of Golf), when an artificial device or piece of unusual equipment is used during the execution of a stroke or when equipment is used in an unusual manner during the execution of a stroke. (See Decision 5-1f/2 for an exception.)

Section 7 PREFERRED LIES (WINTER RULES) AND ADVERSE COURSE CONDITIONS

Definitions

Within each section, all defined terms are in italics and are listed alphabetically in Section 2 - Definitions.

7-1. Acceptability of Scores When Playing Preferred Lies

Scores made when a Local Rule for preferred lies (winter rules) is in effect must be posted for handicap purposes unless the Committee (preferably the Handicap Committee in consultation with the Committee in charge of the course) determines that course conditions are so poor that such scores are not acceptable and should not be posted . Individual players playing the course do not independently decide whether scores are acceptable because of the conditions. If an individual decides to apply some form of this Local Rule, and the Committee has not invoked such a rule, the player's score is acceptable and must be posted for handicap purposes.

I got the idea of adjusting the rating based on the tees I played from not being located at their rated yardage from Erik`s post in this TST thread http://thesandtrap.com/t/61424/players-needed-join-the-tst-2012-forward-tees-experiment#post_758649 .  The USGA Handicap Manual does seem to allow a player to come up with an adjusted course rating/slope when playing a course from a different length than the established ratings:

g. Posting a Score from an Unrated Set of Tees on a Rated Course

Authorized golf associations issue a USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating for the most commonly played sets of tees. If a USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating from a selected set of tees are not available for the appropriate gender, the player may apply the following procedure on a temporary basis:

• Locate the nearest set of rated tees for the appropriate gender;

• Determine the yardage difference between the set of tees being played and the rated set of tees;

• Using the following table, find the range that includes the yardage difference;

Add the resulting table values if the unrated tees are longer than the rated tees, or subtract the resulting values if the unrated tees are shorter than the rated tees.

This method may also be used if a player plays a combination of tees. The player first determines the total yardage played then applies the above procedure.

If the committee in charge of a competition has used a combination of tees for a competition course, this procedure may be used. This procedure is not a substitute for a formal USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating .

For a nine-hole adjustment, the proper procedure is to use the actual yardage difference for the adjustment to the USGA Course Rating , and double the yardage difference to find the appropriate Slope Rating adjustment.

Example 1 : A woman plays from the middle tees, which are not rated for women. The women's USGA Course Rating from the forward tees is 71.6, with a Slope Rating of 119. The middle tees are 396 yards longer than the forward tees. She enters the 387 to 404 yard range, which corresponds to adding 2.2 to the USGA Course Rating and 5 to the Slope Rating of the forward tees. She will post her score with a USGA Course Rating of 73.8 (71.6 + 2.2) and a Slope Rating of 124 (119 + 5).

Example 2 : A man plays nine holes from the forward tees, which are not rated for men. The men's nine-hole USGA Course Rating from the middle tees is 34.8, with a Slope Rating of 117. The forward tees are 195 yards shorter than the middle tees. He enters the 187 to 208 yard range to subtract 0.9 from the USGA Course Rating and the 385 to 406 yard range
(195 x 2 = 390) to subtract four from the Slope Rating of the middle tees.
He will post his score with a USGA Course Rating of 33.9 (34.8 - 0.9) and a Slope Rating of 113 (117 - 4).

Note 1 : If a player plays a course which does not have the necessary men's or women's USGA Course Rating and Slope Rating , the player should notify the authorized golf association that has jurisdiction in that area.

Note 2 : If the yardage difference is more than 1,250 yards for women or 802 yards for men, the player finds one-half of the yardage difference on the table, doubles the corresponding numbers, and applies the procedure above. For example, if a man finds a yardage difference of 1,400 yards, he doubles the values for 700 yards from the table, and adds 6.4 (3.2 x 2) to the USGA Course Rating and 16 (8 x 2) to the Slope Rating .

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by MEfree

To me, golf is a game governed by a lot of rules.  While I would prefer the rules to be less complicated, I am trying to become as familiar and knowledgeable with them as possible.  This forum has helped with that, but I make an effort to try to sift the good info from the incorrect or misguided.

I think you gave bad information in saying that it is ok for a player to make a judgement call and not post a score because the course is playing at an atypical level.  You also appear to be wrong about it being completely incorrect to for a player to adjust a course rating/slope based on the actual yardage of the tees he played being different than the yardage of the rated tees.

I can`t find anywhere in the USGA Handicap Manual where it says a player can make a judgement call about course condition when deciding to post a score.  In fact, section 7 says exactly the opposite.  The relevant parts seem to be that you are suppose to post all scores during the active season and that it is up to the association to decide if the course condition should preclude a score from being posted:

(snip)

Find me one other person besides you who cares enough to deal with that crap.  I don't, and I won't.  I was referring more to the temporary greens in your statement anyway.  Also to temporary tees, not using any of the tee boxes, but sticking a set of markers out in front in the short rough and calling it a teeing ground.  My course has used such a setup a few times when a tee was being repaired,  and my Men's Club, which is the entity which maintains my handicap, said that we were to score those holes as unplayed, par plus handicap.  If the entire course had been set like that those scores would not have been entered at all - no messing around with rerating or any other action.  It's hard enough for most players to just enter the right tees and figure ESC.   In the case of temporary greens, that's even a bigger change, and virtually unratable.

You go ahead and do what you feel you must, and I will do what I feel is reasonable, and I will bet you dollars to doughnuts that my index isn't affected by two tenths of a point at any time during a typical season.  What I'm talking about is failure to return 2 scores out of 100.... That is statistically insignificant.

[mdl]

Talk about overkill.  If it's bumpy enough still that it seriously affects play, just lift and replace the ball if it's plugged in an aeration hole off the green (I honestly have never seen aeration off the green with big enough holes that you needed to move the ball), take two putts max, and don't turn in the score.  It doesn't need to be a theological debate like we're deciding under what conditions not submitting a score will get you sent to hell.

[Wansteadimp]

You could move to a CONGU country then you only need to keep your handicap on counting competition rounds. None in winter, even if there is a comp its non-counting because of the up tee boxes and changed conditions.

[Rulesman]

Originally Posted by Wansteadimp

You could move to a CONGU country then you only need to keep your handicap on counting competition rounds. None in winter, even if there is a comp its non-counting because of the up tee boxes and changed conditions.

Qualifying Competitions (ie handicap counting) are often played through the winter. It depends on whereabouts the course, its location, the prevailing conditions. Most links courses run right through. Many parkland, especially those on clay, don't.

They are not eligible if there are more than a certain no of temporary greens in play

or if the length is reduced by more than a certain length because of temporary tees or greens

or if more than a certain no of bunkers are out of play.

Aeration holes are not necessarily a reason for a competition to be a non qualifier.

[David in FL]

You could move to a CONGU country then you only need to keep your handicap on counting competition rounds. None in winter, even if there is a comp its non-counting because of the up tee boxes and changed conditions.

Thank you no. I prefer to know that handicaps are at least relatively current and somewhat representative of what a player is capable of playing now......not what they may have played to three years ago. But that may just be me......