Player survives First stage of Q-school but calls PGA TOUR office to Disqualify Himself

[Strike One]

  iacas said:

Originally Posted by iacas

There's no "intent" in that rule. You brush the leaf, you've violated the Rules.

It's really that simple.

There is intent in every rule, otherwise it's meaningless. Sports are full of rules which are regularly broken, but a referee doesn't call each infraction unless the player gains an unfair advantage. If the refs called every infraction, games would take days to play.

In golf, the player is often the referee and is relied upon to call the infraction based on his own judgment. Most rules are based on the premise of prohibiting an unfair advantage. Brushing a leaf is not gaining any advantage, so as far as I'm concerned, the player should have the option to use his own judgment as to whether to call it or not. By definition, the honor system is telling the player to use his own judgment.

Nothing is cut and dry in this world. There are always exceptions and mitigating circumstances which are outside the letter of the law.

[David in FL]

  Strike One said:

There is intent in every rule, otherwise it's meaningless. Sports are full of rules which are regularly broken, but a referee doesn't call each infraction unless the player gains an unfair advantage. If the refs called every infraction, games would take days to play. In golf, the player is often the referee and is relied upon to call the infraction based on his own judgment. Most rules are based on the premise of prohibiting an unfair advantage. Brushing a leaf is not gaining any advantage, so as far as I'm concerned, the player should have the option to use his own judgment as to whether to call it or not. By definition, the honor system is telling the player to use his own judgment. Nothing is cut and dry in this world. There are always exceptions and mitigating circumstances which are outside the letter of the law.

The honor system is definitely NOT telling the player to "use his own judgement"! The honor system, as you refer to it requires that the player apply the rules as they are written, regardless of player intent or personal interpretation.......period.

[newtogolf]

Sports are full of rules which are regularly broken, but aside from golf it's up to an unbiased referees or umpires judgment what to call and what not to call.  In golf you are held to the rules regardless of intent.  You may not have intended to touch the leaf, but if you did, you broke the rule.

  Strike One said:

Originally Posted by Strike One

There is intent in every rule, otherwise it's meaningless. Sports are full of rules which are regularly broken, but a referee doesn't call each infraction unless the player gains an unfair advantage. If the refs called every infraction, games would take days to play.

In golf, the player is often the referee and is relied upon to call the infraction based on his own judgment. Most rules are based on the premise of prohibiting an unfair advantage. Brushing a leaf is not gaining any advantage, so as far as I'm concerned, the player should have the option to use his own judgment as to whether to call it or not. By definition, the honor system is telling the player to use his own judgment.

Nothing is cut and dry in this world. There are always exceptions and mitigating circumstances which are outside the letter of the law.

[x129]

Well that is because golf isn't a sport I am not sure but I am guessing sports like bowling also don't have referees.  And intent doesn't matter in any sport.  If you told the umpire you didn't mean to bean the other player in the head, it doesn't matter. They runner still gets his base.

Quote:

  newtogolf said:

Sports are full of rules which are regularly broken, but aside from golf it's up to an unbiased referees or umpires judgment what to call and what not to call.  In golf you are held to the rules regardless of intent.  You may not have intended to touch the leaf, but if you did, you broke the rule.

[Valleygolfer]

  vasaribm said:

Originally Posted by vasaribm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Valleygolfer

After hearing about his history, it sounds like a fear of success.

This guy has won 4 of 6 NGA Tour events he has entered.  Not sure he fears success....  He obviously has the skill and will find a way back.

http://www.ngatour.com/general/news/release_988.html

Maybe so but he has called penalties on himself in the past. Who knows what demons are in peoples heads.

[iacas]

  Strike One said:

Originally Posted by Strike One

There is intent in every rule, otherwise it's meaningless. Sports are full of rules which are regularly broken, but a referee doesn't call each infraction unless the player gains an unfair advantage. If the refs called every infraction, games would take days to play.

Those are other sports, where part of the way to play is to try to blur the lines and get away with things as much as you can.

And there's no "intent" in every rule in golf. The best rules remain black and white. If he touched the leaf, it's a penalty. Period.

  Strike One said:

Originally Posted by Strike One

Brushing a leaf is not gaining any advantage, so as far as I'm concerned, the player should have the option to use his own judgment as to whether to call it or not. By definition, the honor system is telling the player to use his own judgment.

You couldn't be more wrong, and I hope you don't gamble with people because you seem to believe that you get to selectively enforce the Rules based on your judgment, not the simple reality of whether you violated the Rules or not.

[turtleback]

  Strike One said:

Originally Posted by Strike One

There is intent in every rule, otherwise it's meaningless. Sports are full of rules which are regularly broken, but a referee doesn't call each infraction unless the player gains an unfair advantage. If the refs called every infraction, games would take days to play.

In golf, the player is often the referee and is relied upon to call the infraction based on his own judgment. Most rules are based on the premise of prohibiting an unfair advantage. Brushing a leaf is not gaining any advantage, so as far as I'm concerned, the player should have the option to use his own judgment as to whether to call it or not. By definition, the honor system is telling the player to use his own judgment.

Nothing is cut and dry in this world. There are always exceptions and mitigating circumstances which are outside the letter of the law.

No, what you are describing is the player using his own judgement to rationalize cheating.  Try that in a tournament or a match for money and you will find out.  In some circles, trying that in a money match can get you hurt.

[David in FL]

  turtleback said:

No, what you are describing is the player using his own judgement to rationalize cheating.  Try that in a tournament or a match for money and you will find out.  In some circles, trying that in a money match can get you hurt.

You know, I may have to rethink my point of view on the whole "why aren't you scratch" thread..... Rather than just accepting that I'm just not good enough, I just might be able to get there if I "use my best judgement" in applying the rules! ;-)

[iacas]

  David in FL said:

Originally Posted by David in FL

You know, I may have to rethink my point of view on the whole "why aren't you scratch" thread..... Rather than just accepting that I'm just not good enough, I just might be able to get there if I "use my best judgement" in applying the rules!

Exactly! That ball wouldn't have lipped out if the previous person hadn't damaged the cup, or that worm hadn't deflected your ball slightly. That wasn't the intent of the greenkeeper!

You'll be under par in no time!

[Valleygolfer]

  David in FL said:

Originally Posted by David in FL

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtleback

No, what you are describing is the player using his own judgement to rationalize cheating.  Try that in a tournament or a match for money and you will find out.  In some circles, trying that in a money match can get you hurt.

You know, I may have to rethink my point of view on the whole "why aren't you scratch" thread..... Rather than just accepting that I'm just not good enough, I just might be able to get there if I "use my best judgement" in applying the rules!

After a few adjustments (read a lot),  I shot 1 under my last round. A bird chirped on my back swing on eighteen, so the shot didn't count to get me to one under par.

[David in FL]

  Valleygolfer said:

After a few adjustments (read a lot),  I shot 1 under my last round. A bird chirped on my back swing on eighteen, so the shot didn't count to get me to one under par. :dance:

When I'm standing on every tee box, my intent is always to hit the ball into the hole. Hmmmmmm.....

[newtogolf]

Actually intent does matter in sports like football, hockey and even baseball to some degree.  If a defender is blatant in his attempt to injure another player in football he can be ejected from the game.  In baseball the pitcher that hits the batter first just gives up an automatic base, if the pitcher from the other team hits a batter and the umpire deems it was intentional he can be thrown out of the game.   Bowling has electronic referees that monitor the foul line and perform automatic scoring, during league play, the score cannot be adjusted unless both teams concur on the adjustment.

  x129 said:

Originally Posted by x129

Well that is because golf isn't a sport I am not sure but I am guessing sports like bowling also don't have referees.  And intent doesn't matter in any sport.  If you told the umpire you didn't mean to bean the other player in the head, it doesn't matter. They runner still gets his base.

Quote:

[Strike One]

  iacas said:

Originally Posted by iacas

Those are other sports, where part of the way to play is to try to blur the lines and get away with things as much as you can.

And there's no "intent" in every rule in golf. The best rules remain black and white. If he touched the leaf, it's a penalty. Period.

You couldn't be more wrong, and I hope you don't gamble with people because you seem to believe that you get to selectively enforce the Rules based on your judgment, not the simple reality of whether you violated the Rules or not.

By intent, I mean reason. The intent of a rule is the reason for making the rule in the first place. The rules are there to make the game fair.

I don't selectively interpret the rules to gain an advantage either. I was just saying that in an instance as trivial as brushing a leaf, it would be reasonable to forget about it and get on with the game. That's just my opinion. You can blow it out of proportion and misinterpret it all you want.

I doubt there is anyone on this board who would actually call that one on themselves, although I'm equally sure that many would claim they would.

[iacas]

  Strike One said:

Originally Posted by Strike One

I was just saying that in an instance as trivial as brushing a leaf, it would be reasonable to forget about it and get on with the game. That's just my opinion. You can blow it out of proportion and misinterpret it all you want. I doubt there is anyone on this board who would actually call that one on themselves, although I'm equally sure that many would claim they would.

People disagree with the bold part. I think people disagree that it's "reasonable to forget about it." I disagree. You don't get to re-draw the lines or make judgment calls. Rules are rules.

And I know of people (and am one of those people) who have called penalties on themselves.

[thescarecrow]

  iacas said:

Originally Posted by iacas

People disagree with the bold part. I think people disagree that it's "reasonable to forget about it." I disagree. You don't get to re-draw the lines or make judgment calls. Rules are rules.

And I know of people (and am one of those people) who have called penalties on themselves.

Which way would you call it if it was 50/50.

Just you, a fairway bunker and a leaf on your backswing (maybe).

If in doubt would you call it yes or no.

[David in FL]

  thescarecrow said:

Originally Posted by thescarecrow

Which way would you call it if it was 50/50.

Just you, a fairway bunker and a leaf on your backswing (maybe).

If in doubt would you call it yes or no.

No one is advocating penalizing themselves, or anyone else unnecessarily.  If I don't know if I touched the leave, I'm giving myself the benefit of the doubt.  BUT, if I violate a rule and I'm aware that I did so, I'm going to assess myself the appropriate penalty.

Happened last weekend.......my ball struck another player's ball on the green because I was to impatient to wait for him to mark his ball before I chipped.  In helping him return his ball to the correct spot, I went completely brain dead and picked up my own ball without marking it.  Ugh......  No one would ever have known had I just dropped the coin down and moved on.  Heaven knows I didn't intend to do it, and ultimately, I sure didn't get any real benefit from having violated the rule, as I had to replace my ball where it had been (and promptly missed the putt) anyway.

I HATE it when I do dumb things!

[x129]

The intent of the player doesn't matter. The judgement of the referee does. See yesterdays football game for an example of intent not mattering. The coach through a challenge flag to make sure a play was reviewed. I am sure he didn't intend on getting a 15 yard penalty and not having the play reviewed.  That rule is as dumb as any in golf.

Again the problem here has nothing to do with the leave moving or not. It has to do if you realize you submitted an incorrect scorecard what do you do? There is no judgement calls involved about if he did or did not hit a leaf. It is simply he signed for a score 1 less than what he shot.

  newtogolf said:

Originally Posted by newtogolf

Actually intent does matter in sports like football, hockey and even baseball to some degree.  If a defender is blatant in his attempt to injure another player in football he can be ejected from the game.  In baseball the pitcher that hits the batter first just gives up an automatic base, if the pitcher from the other team hits a batter and the umpire deems it was intentional he can be thrown out of the game.   Bowling has electronic referees that monitor the foul line and perform automatic scoring, during league play, the score cannot be adjusted unless both teams concur on the adjustment.

[thescarecrow]

  David in FL said:

Originally Posted by David in FL

No one is advocating penalizing themselves, or anyone else unnecessarily.  If I don't know if I touched the leave, I'm giving myself the benefit of the doubt.  BUT, if I violate a rule and I'm aware that I did so, I'm going to assess myself the appropriate penalty.

Happened last weekend.......my ball struck another player's ball on the green because I was to impatient to wait for him to mark his ball before I chipped.  In helping him return his ball to the correct spot, I went completely brain dead and picked up my own ball without marking it.  Ugh......  No one would ever have known had I just dropped the coin down and moved on.  Heaven knows I didn't intend to do it, and ultimately, I sure didn't get any real benefit from having violated the rule, as I had to replace my ball where it had been (and promptly missed the putt) anyway.

I HATE it when I do dumb things!

Did you promptly add on the penalty ?, or did you deem this unnecessary?