Question about LESSONS

[withdrew]

Hey guys/gals:

Let me begin by asking all you PGA Pros or instructors out there to NOT take offense at anything I'm about to say. I am only speaking about my personal experience with two instructors, and I want to get some feedback from this community.

I've been playing golf since high-school, but mostly nonsense, I was never any good. When I was in college (about 10 years ago...my god am I that old?) I decided I wanted to play regularly, but I still sucked so I got my father's K-mart clubs (a driver and 5-iron) cut class and went to the driving range with $100. I hit about a dozen large buckets until I had blisters, but I did get to the point where I would ALWAYS make contact, and ALWAYS get the ball airborne, which was my only real goal.

What I also ended up doing was reinforcing some terrible habits, I'm sure.

Fast forward to 2000, where I came back to the game. Got myself some average equipment (Tommy Armour 845's oversize irons, Tight Lies Woods) and started playing again, sans lessons. Mostly driving range nonsense again, because I didn't want to make a fool of myself.

Started a new job in 2000. No more school, but long hours and shift-work, weekends and holidays, only in my dreams. Golf took a back-seat.

2005-2007, Weekends and holidays off, salary is pretty good so I don't need any overtime, back to golf. I started playing pitch & putt regularly, got pretty good at it, but still have those fundamental breakdowns that need addressing. Finally took some lessons. Sorry about the lengthy intro, just want to give you some background.

First instructor- INFATUATED WITH HIPS. HIP MOTION. HIP MOVEMENT. TWIST YOUR HIPS. TURN. ROTATE YOUR HIPS. DO THIS IN THE SHOWER. TWIST, ROTATE, ETC. ETC. I got kinda sick of it to be honest. He did teach me about letting my arms hang loose, which has stuck with me until this day, but I think I only ended up taking 2 lessons from him.

I proceed to get new clubs, the ones in my WITB (except for the woods, which I just got this season).

So one day I'm at the range (same place where I took that first lesson) and I hear this other instructor speaking with a guy in the bay next to me. Sounds like a knowledgeable guy, (both of them) and the instructor seems very soft-spoken and patient. I eventually get his card and set up an appointment, which was stellar. I think I actually got more out of that one hour than I got in YEARS of playing on my own, and he made the other instructor seem like a tremendous waste of time.

I made another appointment, and again, I felt it was very productive. The instructor likes me, and I listen to him and practice what he tells me to do RELIGIOUSLY, METICULOUSLY, OBSESSIVELY. I really want to be good at golf, and I have relatively low expectations. I don't have enough time to devote to this game that would allow me to shoot in the 70's, but I am happy to be an 80's-90's guy (I'm a mid-low 90's guy right now!) I can tell that the instructor knows I'm devoted, he's almost surprised that I retain the information this well and that I practice so often.

Now I don't want to come off as arrogant or full of myself, but I think I am a great student. I love the game, I have great equipment (like all TERRIBLE golfers LOL) and I am dedicated to becoming better. Third lesson, I felt we took steps backward. I have specific things I want to address (which I spoke-up about) and I feel they were almost ignored. I can understand not wanting to "overwhelm" a student with too much information, but it almost seems like he's holding out on me, (not that I'm on my way to becoming Tiger Woods) but I am responding well to the instruction, and he knows that once I can hit the ball straight, consistently, that I won't be back for more lessons. He's not 100% wrong- I am not here to become a golf god, and like I said, I'm happy shooting in 80's and 90's. Perhaps one day my expectations will change, but right now all I want to do is hit the ball down the middle, I could care less about distance and carry and roll and angles, I just want the fundamentals to be pure, and the other stuff will come as it may.

Wow that was a mouthful. So my question(s):

-Do instructors ever "hold out" in an effort to keep you coming back?
-Is this ethical?
-For you instructors out there, do you know of instructors that do this, or have you done this yourself?
-Do you have set curriculum regardless of the skills of the individual? Would you treat me the same as a 14 year old Tiger Woods, or would you adjust your lessons to the needs of the student?

Maybe I'm crazy, but like I said, this is my experience and I would love any and all comments.

Thanks in advance.
-Andrew

[$2 Nassau]

I'm certainly no instructor but I will give you my $.02.

I would find it hard to believe that an instructor would hold back, if they did it certainly would not be ethical, or smart for their career. Here's how I see it....if this instructor gets you good results, you would be MORE likely to come back and see him. If he "holds back" and you continue to not show any improvement you would be more likely to ditch him (like the hips/shower guy you first took lessons from).

Point is, trust him. Maybe he ignored your requests because they may be a little too advanced for you right now and might hinder your learning. Maybe he has noticed some fundamental flaws in your game and wants to address those first. He is a PGA teaching pro for a reason.

Bottom line: are you improving? If yes, stick with him. If not, maybe it's time to move on.

Again, I'm no expert, just thinking out loud here.....


P.S.

You say you're happy being a low 90's/80's shooter. I said the same thing, until I started breaking 90. Now I want to break 80. If you are as devoted as you appear to be, I think you will never be satisfied and always want to improve, just like the rest of us.

-$2

[iacas]

-Do instructors ever "hold out" in an effort to keep you coming back?

I doubt it. It may not be unethical - it'd just be stupid.

It's in every instructor's best interests to get you going in the right direction and to get you to improve. If you took a step backwards, that may be because he knows you're devoted. Even Tiger Woods takes steps backwards so he can take a step forward when things click again. Maybe he's actually doing something most instructors don't do because he sees how devoted you are - he figures you're in it for the long haul, unlike most people who just want some quick tip to improve dramatically. Talk with the instructor. Book five lessons, one per month, and pre-pay (you'll probably get a discount). Tell him what your goals are and ask him what his roadmap is. Tell him you're okay with a set-back short-term if it's good long-term, but that you want to know what the roadmap is so that you can better stick to it.

[withdrew]

That sounds like good advice. I did consider the fact that I was putting the cart before the horse, perhaps getting ahead of myself and the instructors intended path for my game/swing/mechanics etc. I am DEFINITELY improving, and it has been the best investment in my game that I have ever made. There's no doubt he's a good instructor, and I will surely be back.

As far as "always wanting to improve" that goes without saying. With this game as you undoubtedly know, it's forever a learning process. I certainly hope to break 80 and go even lower, but I understand that you have to crawl before you can walk, which is why I don't even mention the word 80 or 70 when it comes to my game. I play with an open mind, I don't get very frustrated or heated when I make mistakes, and no matter how I play, I always enjoy myself. As you also mentioned, I'm not (and don't want to be) that guy who buys thousands of dollars in equipment and takes one lesson, telling the instructor how to take strokes off my score. I am definitely in it for the long haul.

Thanks for the advice guys. I appreciate it and look forward to more discussions like this.

-Andrew

[Shindig]

Hey guys/gals:

They don't hold out, but you don't give all the information at once. This is simply due to your retention abilities. Anyone who has done any serious teaching (not limited to golf instruction) knows that you have to give little bits of information, and make the students retain the important pieces. Remember back in college when you summarized your lecture notes and looked for that key theme in the full notes to get the most out of a lecture? Same idea. An Algebra I student is capable of understanding the concept of a limit, but it would be too much to go from factoring polynomials to limits. So you add a few things onto it and take time. My algebra teacher didn't hold out on me, she just delayed some of the more advanced stuff until I had mastered the pre-requisites.

[Leek]

I think most good instructors evaluate what you have and make a plan that is sequential. They don't share it with you, because it would be information overload. It's human nature to try to fix everything at once, which leads to massive frustration. Depending on your swings faults they would prioritize and then work on that list.

One note, even in your first lesson, a good instructor should be able to get you to hit at least one ball exactly like you always wanted. If not, move on.

[Ringer]

I run into a similar situation sometimes with my students that you describe. They are looking for something initially when they come to me, but then a sudden shift of priorities and I have to go along with them. I am usually quite reluctant to do so because most likely there will be a conflict and a decrease in the players abilities with such numerous changes in direction.

Bottom line, you have to go step by step. If you haven't completed one step there is no point in going to the next. It may simply be you were trying to get ahead of yourself.

[laconic517]

some dont know what they are talking about, at least for certain players I guess. Granted ive only seen 2 pros and the one i just started seeing seems a million times better (although compared to the lady who first gave me lessons, this guy is one of the more well known teaching pros in the area)

Sounds like you got stuck with one of those guys with the hip thing, my brotherinlaw whos a 30+ handicap always talks about his hips and stuff when hes playing, someday id just want to tell him thats not what the **** the problem is and go see a pro because if it were just his hips hed have figured it out by now. Someone must have told him about something todo with his hips early on and hes decided hed like to live by it or something. Anyway I think like Iacas said you need to tell whoever you are getting lessons from you have a longterm plan and you are serious about getting better and the 2 of you can discuss a map for you to get there. When i first got lessons from that lady I was a mid to low 80's golfer consistantly, every now and again id break 70, she had me doing this weird ass jim furyk loop in my swing that was extremely vertical but I had no shoulder turn and consiquently hit my driver very poorly. I stopped going to her after a whiel (she also mentioned absolutely nothing about swaying or my weak grip) and i started to get better on my own(granted she helped some, but i definately regret going there now)

This newer guy helped me get my swing on plane and its not so vertical anymore and ive regained distance I had lost over the past year or 2, feels nice. Shop around for lessons too, like Iacas said if you pay upfront you can get them for much cheaper usually and its easier to get a plan in place if you have them set up long term or something (say 5-10 lessons over the period of 2-4 months or something)

That holding back stuff would be dumb imo too, I think they just dont want to bombard you all at once, or some of them may not believe you are serious about getting better or believe you have the talent (just off a lot of people looking for quick fixes and stuff) I dont think it would hurt to read up on stuff and ask the guy for his opinion on stuf for things like that, it could always jog his memory or get him to try things with you to see if works or not. Good luck