My Swing (logman)

[logman]

"For instance if your left wrist was actually locked, then the shaft would stay as a continuation of the line of your left forearm like it is at address. But it clearly doesn't as you can see from the still frames. Hence the old saying, "feel ain't real".

I'm talking about the front arm....the front wrist....the right one.

Mordan, grab a golf club, hold it in your front hand, address an imaginary ball...... see the shaft of the club is on a different plane to your forearm. If the handle of the shaft continued on till it hit your body then the shaft would hit your body at about your belly or belt buckle. There's the angle. Freeze your wrist and raise your arm up to your rear shoulder. See how there's an angle between  the shaft and your wrist. Notice how the club points straight up or slightly towards the target......while you forearm is pointed the other way.

there's an angle.

[Golfingdad]

Logman, you can continue arguing with everybody until you are blue in the face, but the video CLEARLY confirms what we all already suspected:  You absolutely cock your wrists in your swing.  Period.

Instead of looking at A4, maybe a better comparison would be your A2 vs. your A5 or A6.  There is no distortion from camera angle or shadows or whatever there.  (Sorry, I don't know how to do the screen shots like others can)  At your A2 (shaft parallel to ground on backswing) the relationship between your right forearm, wrist and club shaft matches your setup ... they are basically in line.  But when you fastforward to A5 or A6, you will see that there is at least 70 or 80 degrees of angle there.  Then at impact?  Voila, wrists uncocked.  That's where your power comes from.

Saying that you aren't using your wrists would be like saying that it's possible to throw a 90 mph fastball with just your shoulder and no wrist action.

[JetFan1983]

^^^ Yea, pretty much what golfingdad just said.

Logman, you clearly do not understand what wrist cock actually means.

This is just another reason why having a common language for golf (thanks, TGM!) is so enormously important to the golfing community as a whole.

PS- And yes, logman, it is a good point to say that your swing should not be viewed as a model for the LPG pattern. I say the same thing to people who ask me about S&T.;

[logman]

Guys, a very important part of the Kuykendall LPG swing is the wrist trainer. It's an ingenious device that straps to the lead forearm. From the strap a steel rod extends along the inside of the forearm to past the the middle and index fingers. A hole is cut in the end of the grip .

So you strap on the device,slide the club onto the steel rob and grip the top of the stick.

This then imobilizes the wrist. Totally. It's like you've taped the golf grip to your forearm and the only way you can power the swing is NOT by using wrist cock/wrist lag/wrist.......whatever

So when you first use the device (other LPGers call it "the instrument of torture") it's just plain ugly, There were times where I'd completely miss the ball. Even a full on 5 iron hit as hard as I could would go 50 meters.

But then I started getting it. You power the swing with the triceps and the shoulders and the long lever the you created by making the golf shaft and the forearm one thing does the rest..

Kuykendall says when you can hit the ball 90% of the distance with the trainer on then you've got the LPG swing.

The "device" is very instructive, it gives you instant feedback. Hit 20 balls with the device on and it refreshes your swing.

So this wrist thing....maybe I'll post some video with the trainer on. And some video of me hitting the ball off grass for Erik.

If you guys want to do some homework you could go to Jack Kuykendalls site where there is a bunch of stuff to look at. He also writes at a Scigolf

[Mordan]

Backswing:

Downswing:

By bending the lead (I referred to your lead arm as your left earlier before, sorry my right hander bias creeping in) elbow you do reduce wrist cock in the lead wrist. But not in the trail wrist, as you can clearly see above.

[logman]

Absolutely, I'm not worried at all about the trail wrist. It's the stiff front wrist that is the issue. The system is a lever and piston set up with the hinge at the front elbow. The rear arm makes most of the power and the stiff front wrist gives you the straightness.

[Just Brilliant]

Your swing has stability and athleticism. Don't work it too hard. I would say you only need an hour's practice to solidify your tempo.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by logman

So the wide stance

It's not a particularly wide stance.

Originally Posted by logman

heel of the back foot on the ground for as long as possible

Better golfers tend to keep the heel down a little longer. Poor golfers pop the knee in towards the golf ball and get the heel off the ground quickly.

http://iacas.org/f/fred_couples_foot_down.jpg

Originally Posted by logman

the super thick grip

Got nothing to do with the swing you're using.

Originally Posted by logman

baseball style hand grip

So? There's a guy playing cross-handed.

Originally Posted by logman

the bending of the front arm to well over 90 degrees

I don't know that it's well over 90 degrees, but so? You're adding a lever.

Originally Posted by logman

the small shoulder turn

Fail (see below).

Originally Posted by logman

the "casting" back swing

Why would we care about the backswing? Several other golfers didn't cock their wrists much in the backswing.

Originally Posted by logman

the keeping the back to the target for as long as possible etcetc

Fail:

Originally Posted by logman

And really, are you really saying I'm cocking my wrist? cause I can assure you I aint.

You're wrong.

Originally Posted by logman

Anyhow you said I couldn't hit it out of my own shadow without using my wrists.......and,,,,?????

And... we still haven't seen any proof of this.

Originally Posted by logman

Mate, I hate to break this to ya but Jack Kuykendalls LPG system relies on eliminating cocking of the front wrist.

Then... you should work harder at it.

logman, I'm glad you posted this thread, but at the same time, just denying the obvious is not getting you anywhere.

[logman]

[logman]

Damn, I forgot to add. So here's some swings using a wrist brace , I'm a bit rusty with the brace but still managed a good 120 meters with the pitching wedge.....Well out of my shadow, ha ha. the last swing is with the brace taken off .......It's not the greatest swing but it shows that through the device and a bit of training there is very little/ no wrist hinge/lag/whatever you want to call it. If you go to the Kuykendall site Jack explains that there will always be slight movement in the wrist, but the smaller the better.

[logman]

MMMmmm, picked up a few more meters tonight. After trying to get a slower backswing,( I really don't understand why I find this so hard). I eventually started to feel a bit more at home moving my hands up to my shoulder at what seems like a glacial speed. Anyway, it worked pretty well and the slower backswing made me realize that I now had more time in the swing to think about casting my hands straight back and "unpacking" the compressed elbows early in the downswing. So I started trying to Fling the club out and back with all the strength my triceps could handle. The aim is to straighten my front arm well before the ball, then drive through it with my bottom hand.

I knew when I got it. Nice and solid, high, long with a bit of draw. The driver was nice, probably another 5 meters carry but the 6 iron of the deck was the best. High, 175 meter shots that had serious hang time.

Now all I have to do is remember what I was doing so I can start from where I left off.

[logman]

So a couple of vids using the P/W with a bit better tempo. The first with 1/2 swings with the wrist brace on and the second with it off and a more full on shots. they all went about 125 meters(pretty pleased with the distance I'm getting at the moment). Weight transfer is still a bit too back , but anyway . Tee off gents!

[Parker0065]

Your overall way too stiff and you fall back on your left side(back foot) at impact. From the practice green at my home course I see your swing over, and over, and over(I could keep writing over and over) again from average high handicap golfers on the first tee.

My advice would be to forget everything you've ever learned or thought was correct about the golf swing and sign up for some lessons from a reputable instructor like Golf Evolution! Sorry I'm being painfully honest!

Good Luck Bro!

[onephenom]

i still don't understand the point of the intentional arm bending.

[Righty to Lefty]

Originally Posted by onephenom

i still don't understand the point of the intentional arm bending.

I my novice observation it seems that what the swing is trying to do is remove the 2nd lever of the wrists and make it the lead elbow instead.  Initially I thought he was trying to add a third lever which would provide more speed, but would likely be very inconsistent in ball striking because now the release of a third lever will make timing them correctly.  He manages to generate plenty of speed so logman if you are happy with the way your swing is progressing then do your thing Sir.  Impact conditions are the same for all of us so however you have to get yourself there...just get yourself there!

[logman]

Spot on, R to L, I'm trying to replace the flinging action of the lead wrist with the elbow. The theory goes that the forearm is powered by the triceps and they are more powerful than the wrist, so the ball goes further. And in my experience it sure does. So I don't cock my wrists or look to get lag by having my forearm at 90 degrees to the club shaft. The LPG method basically replaces wrist break with elbow break. So the angle of the club to my forearm stays the same from address all the way to contact. The advantage(s) are plenty. Getting rid of the front wrist is an absolute blessing. The front wrist is the thing that gives the conventional swing its power. Look at that swing of SergioG that was posted recently and the incredible lag that he was generating.....and he manages to get that setup back to square and keep the ball in play. Incredible. I say if you want to try and hit the ball like that...... good luck. I'll leave that method to golfers far more talented than me.

Sorry, advantages, power and accuracy. Power, I'm hitting the ball further in my 50's than I did in my 20's. My pitching wedge is 125 to 135 meters( the 4 or so hits in the latest video were 125 into a good wind. My driver carry is 240 to 250 meters.

Accuracy is weird. Taking the front wrist out of the whole shebang just makes the ball go STRAIGHT. that's all I can say about it...... STRAIGHT.

Parker0065, If you think you've seen my swing over and over from the putting green..... then you're not looking very closely. The front wrist is replaced by the elbow. The front wrist provides no power. all it has to do is get to square.....easy. The elbows supply the hinge and the triceps provide the power. The action of the front arm is the key. Just try this. bend your front arm across your chest so your hand is on your shoulder.... now fling your forearm to straight in a massive backhand "bitchslap". The arms make the power and all the hand and wrist have to do is return the club to square.

[Phil McGleno]

What a crock of poo. You're incredibly straight and accurate and a 12 handicap. Sure thing. Lets see you hit a 5iron off the fairway with your weight on your back foot Good luck. The elbow can be another lever but no good player has to actively do anything with the wrist to get the lag or square it up as they do. You get speed because your arm speed is fast. You have speed. Its not the method. [quote name="logman" url="/t/64565/my-swing-logman/18#post_811746"]Spot on, R to L, I'm trying to replace the flinging action of the lead wrist with the elbow. The theory goes that the forearm is powered by the triceps and they are more powerful than the wrist, so the ball goes further. And in my experience it sure does. So I don't cock my wrists or look to get lag by having my forearm at 90 degrees to the club shaft. The LPG method basically replaces wrist break with elbow break. So the angle of the club to my forearm stays the same from address all the way to contact. The advantage(s) are plenty. Getting rid of the front wrist is an absolute blessing. The front wrist is the thing that gives the conventional swing its power. Look at that swing of SergioG that was posted recently and the incredible lag that he was generating.....and he manages to get that setup back to square and keep the ball in play. Incredible. I say if you want to try and hit the ball like that...... good luck. I'll leave that method to golfers far more talented than me. Sorry, advantages, power and accuracy. Power, I'm hitting the ball further in my 50's than I did in my 20's. My pitching wedge is 125 to 135 meters( the 4 or so hits in the latest video were 125 into a good wind. My driver carry is 240 to 250 meters. Accuracy is weird. Taking the front wrist out of the whole shebang just makes the ball go STRAIGHT. that's all I can say about it...... STRAIGHT. Parker0065, If you think you've seen my swing over and over from the putting green..... then you're not looking very closely. The front wrist is replaced by the elbow. The front wrist provides no power. all it has to do is get to square.....easy. The elbows supply the hinge and the triceps provide the power. The action of the front arm is the key. Just try this. bend your front arm across your chest so your hand is on your shoulder.... now fling your forearm to straight in a massive backhand "bitchslap". The arms make the power and all the hand and wrist have to do is return the club to square. [/quote]

[Righty to Lefty]

Originally Posted by Phil McGleno

What a crock of poo. You're incredibly straight and accurate and a 12 handicap. Sure thing. Lets see you hit a 5iron off the fairway with your weight on your back foot Good luck. The elbow can be another lever but no good player has to actively do anything with the wrist to get the lag or square it up as they do. You get speed because your arm speed is fast. You have speed. Its not the method.

This method isn't for me but I'm not gonna sit here and lash at the man especially after he posted his swing and is definately doing some of the things that he stated he was.  He definately attempts to eliminate wrist cock and it is visibly reduced by quite a bit compared to a "normal" swing. Sure you can hit a golf ball off your back foot...so long as you understand your D Plane and know where the ball needs to be in your stance.  He is definately getting his speed from the ground and you can hear it in the impact that he is generating plenty of power and speed at a very quick rate.  I see it as Jim Furyk would have a hell of a time justifying his swing on a forum but the bottom line is he gets it done and that is all that matters.  I applaud the man for standing in there and putting his swing up and letting us see knowing that the wolves were gonna swarm him.