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logman

How much shaft lean is too much

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I was looking at a table That Lucius Wooding posted about tour players stats and it showed Nearly all clubs had a maximum height of 30 yards....give or take 1 or 2 . So 30 yards for a pitching wedge.....that seems incredibly low. So the pros are putting the ball back and using alot of forward shaft lean to get such a low number. My question is how much shaft lean is too much. And what are the dangers of too much?

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It has a lot to do with clubhead speed, and spin loft. Basically, more spin = higher launch because backspin will cause the ball to rise. Its why a fastball is thrown with backspin, to keep it from dropping, making it a straighter pitch. But also, ball speed effects that as well, more clubhead speed, higher the golf ball. Its just something about how golf is, that the decrease in clubhead speed for each iron and the increase in backspin keep the ball near the same weight.

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With a wedge, the ball launches at about 65% face and 35% path, and the path is -6° or so , and the delivered loft is often only 35° or so (shaft lean), so you can get a ball coming off pretty low.

I've said several times most people don't realize:

a) How high a PGA Tour player hits his long irons.

b) How low a PGA Tour player hits his short irons.

They all tend to max out at about 30 yards, though. With the driver it's obviously much farther down-range than with a wedge.

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I don't know about putting the ball back in their stances (farther than center anyways, but you'd be hard pressed to find a PGA pro without forward leaning shaft. At least on irons. Iacas: Do you have some data from amateurs (scratch) compared to pros on this? Launch angle consistency and peak height through the bag.
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Originally Posted by Zeph

Iacas: Do you have some data from amateurs (scratch) compared to pros on this? Launch angle consistency and peak height through the bag.

Yes. It's what you'd expect: the higher the handicap, the less the consistency and the higher the launch angle (due to more delivered loft). Peak height tends to be too low with long irons and too high with short irons.

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Originally Posted by iacas

Yes. It's what you'd expect: the higher the handicap, the less the consistency and the higher the launch angle (due to more delivered loft). Peak height tends to be too low with long irons and too high with short irons.

Would you ever say to a student "you've got too much shaft lean and this problem is happening because of it?"

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Originally Posted by logman

Would you ever say to a student "you've got too much shaft lean and this problem is happening because of it?"

Yes, there are students that have too much shaft lean at impact (such as me), and tends to hit the long irons too low to have optimal trajectory. It's worse when the AoA is really shallow with too much shaft lean, because you'll often have too low spin and low launch to have sufficient carry.

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Originally Posted by logman

Would you ever say to a student "you've got too much shaft lean and this problem is happening because of it?"

Yes, Rupert. I've said it before quite a few times. Ideal is the shaft lining up *just* after impact. I'll take a guy lining it up later over a guy who lines it up too soon, but both are sub-optimal.

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iacis, Can you clarify what you mean by "lining up" the shaft? Is this the same concept that Manzella is advocating in his Ideas About The Release.........well timed release.......rapidly moving the left wrist to a cupped position through impact interval?
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I think 'lining up the shaft' is relating to your lead shoulder down to the clubhead. It should occur just after impact meaning that the clubhead should bottom out just after you hit the ball.

At least that's what I got from his statement and agree with it.

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Example of to much shaft lean.  This is from my lesson yesterday the idea was for me to be able to over do it a bit to get the feel

as I am still flipping a little..  The drill he had me do to get here was using a ping pong paddle and and only see one side during the swing

so I could get the fell of what my hands should be doing.

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Originally Posted by Hogan1949

Can you clarify what you mean by "lining up" the shaft? Is this the same concept that Manzella is advocating in his Ideas About The Release.........well timed release.......rapidly moving the left wrist to a cupped position through impact interval?

I don't know what Brian's current flavor of the week is.

I'm talking about the shaft lining up with the lead arm (or the proxy, in the case of Lee Westwood and his ilk) at or just after impact, not before. The picture below your post (and quoted here) is a good example of too much shaft lean - the shaft still hasn't lined up and won't until well after impact.

It's fine in a drill/practice, but if this was a real swing, way too much.

Originally Posted by VegasRenegade

Example of to much shaft lean.

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Originally Posted by VegasRenegade

Where would you put these swings in terms of shaft lean

I think by now that my answers would be pretty obvious, no?

And shaft lean matters less with a driver. So only the last one's one I'd change, and who knows - he might have been hitting a bit of a different kind of tee shot there. + AoA without increasing delivered loft a ton, though. Ball go far.

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I am truly trying to get the picture.  I think I understand what you are saying but ... Can  you post a pic of what you fell is perfect forward shaft lean

or perfect impact position.

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You can probably find somewhat ideal positions with one club, one ball position and one player, but there are too individual differences to nail it in one general picture. The driver is especially difficult, as you don't need the same kind of position as with irons. Look at the impact position of various good players and you'll soon enough see what it looks like. This isn't science you put down to a single reference point.
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Originally Posted by VegasRenegade

I am truly trying to get the picture.  I think I understand what you are saying but ... Can  you post a pic of what you fell is perfect forward shaft lean

or perfect impact position.

A shaft inline with the lead arm or just behind it (i.e. will line up right after the golf ball).

And the above does nothing to state that there aren't cases when you'd want a little more shaft lean due to what it can do the impact dynamics.

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