Beginners question - Would a tour driver help control the power slices?

[MS256]

Originally Posted by TommyBoy

Then I am truly confused! I don't know anything about adjustable drivers so we must not talking about the same thing.

I am talking about open club-face vs closed. If you open the club-face...you are assuredly INCREASING the loft of the club. Just the opposite when closing.

What they are saying (and they are probably correct) is that if you open the club face (which we know increases loft) BUT then you square the club face back up (at impact) the loft is now less than it would have been if left neutral at address.

When we want to hit a high fade we are leaving the face open at impact (by design) instead of squaring it back up.

[RichWW2]

The Cleveland Hi-Bore XLS Tour driver I use has a 2 degrees open face.  Not sure if that is the case for all "Tour" drivers.  I would think an open face would make slice issues worse because of the open face.  You'd want a neutral or slightly closed face if you're having slices issues.  Also, depending on your swing speed, you might need a different shaft on your driver.

[TommyBoy]

Originally Posted by MS256

What they are saying (and they are probably correct) is that if you open the club face (which we know increases loft) BUT then you square the club face back up (at impact) the loft is now less than it would have been if left neutral at address.

When we want to hit a high fade we are leaving the face open at impact (by design) instead of squaring it back up.

Yeah, I feel you.... but essentially when you are squaring the open faced club...you are closing the face decreasing the loft. So it is not the opening of the adjustable club face that decreases loft, it is the reactive measures of the player at address or impact. I get it....maybe.

Semantics are cool.

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by RichWW2

The Cleveland Hi-Bore XLS Tour driver I use has a 2 degrees open face.  Not sure if that is the case for all "Tour" drivers.  I would think an open face would make slice issues worse because of the open face.  You'd want a neutral or slightly closed face if you're having slices issues.  Also, depending on your swing speed, you might need a different shaft on your driver.

the point here is.....do you hold the club such that the ball 'sees' those 2 degrees?  (it probably means is the sole plate parallel to the ground then)....

or do you close it up in your grip a bit so the ball sees less than that (and, as a result a lightly lower loft at impact a well) - now you just delofted a bit and took some of that nice spin off that would also reduce the slice so you get less help than you hoped for by closing the face off........

It's not just the club, but how the players addresses the ball with that club.....

I guess good fittings are important.....

[rehmwa]

Originally Posted by TommyBoy

Yeah, I feel you.... but essentially when you are squaring the open faced club...you are closing the face decreasing the loft. So it is not the opening of the adjustable club face that decreases loft, it is the reactive measures of the player at address or impact. I get it....maybe.

Semantics are cool.

BAM!!!

[TommyBoy]

Originally Posted by RichWW2

The Cleveland Hi-Bore XLS Tour driver I use has a 2 degrees open face.

At 2 degrees open, the ball will draw just fine with an in to out swing path.

"  You'd want a neutral or slightly closed face if you're having slices issues.  Also, depending on your swing speed, you might need a different shaft on your driver."

I guess I'm not a big proponent of trying to fix swing faults with equipment. If I am slicing the ball on the range before I go out, I'm usually just not getting my weight to the left before my arms and hands get going or my take away is open etc...but that's a different thread!

[TommyBoy]

Originally Posted by rehmwa

BAM!!!

hehe

[mailman]

Ok...did we actually get to the bottom of whether a tour driver would be better than a full sized 460cc driver at hitting straight?

From the previous answers it seems some tour pro's use shorter shafts on their drivers (although I suspect the big hitters like Watson and Colsarts use longer shafts?) which helps with control...or did I miss that like a fairway with my driver? :)

Regards

Mailman

ps. yes I know...work on my swing...which I am doing already but every little that helps to hit straight is worth investigating.

[RayG]

Ok...did we actually get to the bottom of whether a tour driver would be better than a full sized 460cc driver at hitting straight? From the previous answers it seems some tour pro's use shorter shafts on their drivers (although I suspect the big hitters like Watson and Colsarts use longer shafts?) which helps with control...or did I miss that like a fairway with my driver? :) Regards Mailman ps. yes I know...work on my swing...which I am doing already but every little that helps to hit straight is worth investigating.

Answer is probably yes and no :-P But I will put in my $.02... I started using a Callaway Diablo Octane Tour after using an R7 BECAUSE of the different features of a tour model. Deeper face, slightly smaller clubhead and 1/2 shorter shaft. I have found a bit more consistency and control. The deeper face has allowed me to find the sweet spot more often ( I tended to hit the R7 too high on the face and would lose some distance). I've tracked the strikes on the face and they are consistently within the "V" just above center on the face. The R7 strikes were too close to the crown as far as I was concerned. Now, the question is if a "Tour" model would it help a beginner... IMHO, no it wouldn't. While a shorter shaft might help EVERYONE with control, I feel the design of the 'tour' model is less forgiving than a standard model overall. Not quite as an extreme difference as the difference between Tour Blades and Super GI clubs, but a similar example. Put a forged blade with a sweetspot the size of a dime in an 18 hdcprs hands and it won't be pretty. Put an SGI club with a sweetspot the size of a quarter in those same hands and the results will be remarkably different. The big difference between "us" and "them" is the consistency of their swing. THAT'S why they can hit those dime size sweetspots and we can't. (generally)

[tuffluck]

not sure how similar this is, but i play a low-spin head which has a lower COG and seemingly a smaller sweet spot.  it isn't tour and it is still 460cc, but it doesn't play like many mainstream heads either.  i can really tell if i mishit it, even if the mishit just barely misses the sweet spot.  my previous nike was not like this at all, and pretty much any hit on the head felt good regardless of where the ball ended up.

i mishit the adam's i have now frequently and it still flies well most of the time, i just lose about 15y when compared to a perfect hit (that feels awesome).  usually people that play with me can't tell it was mishit at all, but i can feel it.  my average mishit goes about the same with this driver as my longest with the nike, so i've been pleased with its performance.

that being said i am not really more accurate with it than my nike--they are both about the same, it comes down to feel.  my 3w is an i20, which is a small head, and that is my favorite and most consistent club in the bag.  it would be cool to get the same club in a lower loft and call it my driver; i'm sure my scores would improve.  though as others mentioned, you have to consider shaft length.  i'm sure an 8.5 degree head on my i20 at the same size would not be swung nearly fast enough to get the loft i get on my 45.5" driver.

[mailman]

Thanks Ray and Tuff :)

So one last question...when I look at my three wood and how small the head is on that, would a tour driver head be similar when it comes to hitting? I ask because the 3 wood is probably my best club as far as accuracy and distance goes. Id imagine a tour driver head on the end of a 3 wood shaft would be devistating aye?  :)

BTW, Tuffluck, what kind of driver do you use?

Regards

Mailman

[tuffluck]

Originally Posted by mailman

Thanks Ray and Tuff :)

So one last question...when I look at my three wood and how small the head is on that, would a tour driver head be similar when it comes to hitting? I ask because the 3 wood is probably my best club as far as accuracy and distance goes. Id imagine a tour driver head on the end of a 3 wood shaft would be devistating aye?  :)

BTW, Tuffluck, what kind of driver do you use?

Regards

Mailman

Adams Fast 12 LS

i don't think it would work the same since you have a shorter shaft on the 3w.  so if you just adjusted the loft to equal that of your driver, the shaft wouldn't be long enough to get the extra clubhead speed required to get the distance you would get on a similarly lofted driver shaft.

[RayG]

MANY years ago Adams had a driver with a 11* loft that looked like a fairway wood. Same length as a driver but a MUCH more shallow face and compact head. I LOVED it. It seemed easier to control because of the smaller head and I could drill it with lots of roll because it must have had a higher COG than a normal driver. It was a great "wind" club. As mentioned in a prev. post- one of my 3 wds is a Callaway FTiZ Tour w/13* loft. That one sets up a bit open so I had to make adjustments. The other is an Orlimar w/ 16* that sets up neutral. The 13 is used off the tee in windy conditions(low, boring flight) or holes where a driver isn't needed. Very tough to hit off the deck in fairway and first cut is iffy. The 16 is a much easier club to hit from fairway and is used off the tee if I need the ball to sit down quickly (a sharper dogleg that needs 210 carry or something, but 240 puts you in the woods) at about 225. This game is complicated enough without all the "GI", "SGI", "Tour", "TP", etc... designations on clubs. develop a consistent swing that give you the results you want and go on from there.

[RetroJFrancisco]

Originally Posted by mailman

I ask because I can hit my 3 wood and hybride straight as a die with some good distance (250 yards plus on a cold day) but for the life of me cannot control my driver with the same level of "success".

Now...if I can hit the smaller head clubs straight then would the smaller head tour driver also mean it would be easier to hit drives straight?

Ive had a number of lessons to work on my swing and I have made some steps forward but Im still hitting a high percentage of power slices when using the driver.

Im not looking for a miracle (although one wouldnt be turned down)...just for small steps to help out etc.

Anywho, thanks for your help :)

Regards

Mailman

Assuming that a tour club would come with a much stiffer shaft, if you havent got the swing speed you are going to leak right as the shaft will make the club face open at impact if your swing is not fast enough for the shaft, also alot of tour (All maybe, someone could correct me if poss), will have a slightly open face anyway, as opposed to an offset clubface :)

[Chas]

They made club heads bigger and bigger to give people more forgiveness when they missed the sweet spot. They made driver shafts longer and longer to give people more club head speed. Unfortunately they didn't tell the average Joe that it takes more energy to square up a bigger head than a smaller head or that most people are going to lose accuracy and have less ability to hit the sweet spot with a longer shaft. Even the PGA Tour Players are usually playing with a shorter driver shaft than what the stores are selling to Joe because they know they need the control. Then they make sure they have exactly the right shaft flex, torque, kick point, and overall profile for their swing. While the average Joe is playing a shaft they pulled off of the rack (and have no idea if it has the right characteristics) that's 2 inches longer than a pro can control, and wondering why they can't hit it.

Is this true? If it is (i.e. tour players generally have shorter drivers), then no wonder I'm having control problems! :>)

[Chas]

Fourputt, Please explain why greater loft tends to reduce dispersion, if that's what you're saying. I have a 9deg driver, would my power fades be straighter with say 10.5, other things being equal? Must admit I though the opposite was true but WWIK .... Mind you my main problems are swing plane and forward head drift, not something a different driver will fix.

[sofingaw]

I'm not fourputt, and I'm spitballing here, but I think it's the fact that if the loft is greater, the ball launches higher, which is caused by the direction of spin being more 'straight down'.

Think of how much straighter a 56* wedge goes than a driver. This is because the wedge tends to spin the ball straight down and backward relative to how the face impacts the ball.

I guess it's the same effect, but instead of the difference between 56* and 9*, it's the difference between 10.5* and 9*.

Is that legit?

[MS256]

Originally Posted by Chas

Is this true? If it is (i.e. tour players generally have shorter drivers), then no wonder I'm having control problems!

:>)

The last time I saw that posted the PGA Tour average was 44 1/2 inches. Some of the drivers my friends are buying off of the rack (that they can't hit) are 46 inches. Don't get me wrong. Some players are good enough to handle the extra length and still have control but most of us can't do it.

It's a hassle because to keep the same swing weight you have to add 6 grams to the head for every 1/2 inch you cut off of the butt end of the shaft.

I'll take more center hits and more balls in the fairways even if it costs me a few yards, which isn't a sure thing because every 1/4 inch off of the sweet spot costs about 5 yards anyway.