Ban Belly Putters?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

It can't possibly be unfair when it's available to anyone who wants to go out and buy one.  We only argue that by allowing that anchor point, the long putters let the player oversimplify that part of the game which should take the most skill to excel at. This is contrary to established precedent in using unusual putting strokes or styles.

There's no denying that Sergio putted better (for awhile) with his belly putter, but that comparison is to Sergio himself, not all golfers in general. I don't even think it made him better than an average putter on the PGA Tour, and by definition it's not "unfair" as it's available to all.

I hope that clarifies my position. Argue your side, folks. My side is that I don't like the "how." If you fail to see how that is different than "unfair advantage" then think about it a little more. It wouldn't be an "unfair advantage" if the Rules allowed you to throw the ball once per nine holes, but it'd violate the idea of "how golf is played." :-)

[ND Fan]

if it truly were an unfair advantage everybody would switch to it.  Not every body can putt effectively that way.  I can assure that every tour pro would use everything within the rules to play or putt better.  This is the best case to support that this method of putting is not an advantage of any kind universally.

[uttexas]

Banning long putters will result in lots of harumph and grumbling on the Champions Tour, and Fred Couples would likely have to retire.  Being able to watch Mr. Couples' smooth swing is the best argument for keeping them legal.

Didn't Angel Cabrera win the '09 Masters with a belly putter?

[iacas]

Originally Posted by ND Fan

If it truly were an unfair advantage everybody would switch to it.

Unfair = no. It's currently within the rules.

Advantage = yes and no. NO, because some people seem to putt better with regular length putters, and belly putter wielders are not ranked really high in putting stats. But also YES, but when you compare it against the same individual. Sergio's belly putter gave him an advantage over Sergio's terrible putting with the regular length putter. Adam Scott too. But again an advantage over all regular length putters? That's not been borne out in statistics, victories, etc.

Originally Posted by uttexas

Didn't Angel Cabrera win the '09 Masters with a belly putter?

Nope. Just a putter with a really long grip. He might have liked the (counter-) weighting. It wasn't anchored. He still "swung" the putter.

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by iacas

Should long putters (belly, chin, chest, etc.) be banned, perhaps with a 36-inch limit to putters?

Some more opinions here: http://blogs.golf.com/golfcom/2007/0...-belly-pu.html .

My vote: yes. But I'm about 51/49 on the issue. My interest in banning them would have gone up to 80/20 or higher if Sergio had won the first major using one, because clearly he was able to do something he has been unable to do for awhile. He always had trouble releasing his putter, and Azinger called it the "Automatic Release." Reduction of skill at arguably golf's most important aspect is not right. My problem is that the putter is no longer "swung," but I don't know that you can rule based on that.

I know this is an old post from a while back, but I'm surprised you and I agree on this one (except I'm more like 99/1 on the issue).  The bolded part is the crux of the issue for me.  Isn't there a limit on drive shaft length?  Just do the same thing for putters.  It really irks me to see the long ones on the PGA Tour.  My thoughts on this are that they should allow them on the Champions Tour, but not the PGA Tour.

Brandon

[ET-Taylor]

yes

[bplewis24]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The only thing we contest is that the long putters go against the principles of how a golf club is supposed to be swung, or how a stroke is supposed to be made, if you will.  By anchoring the butt of the shaft it virtually guarantees that the clubhead will return on exactly the same line as it was taken away, with no particular skill exhibited by the player to accomplish this.  In this way it mostly eliminates the likelihood of a miss hit, thus reducing the number of variables in what is clearly the part of the game which is most demanding of precision.

Well said.  As somebody who hasn't followed golf closely until the past 2 years, I honestly don't understand how these things were banned a long time ago.  I figured there must be something I don't understand as most people must not agree with me.  But apparently there are some people who see things the same way I do.

Lastly, the theory that if they held any advantage everybody would use them is a bit flawed in my opinion.  I always got the impression that long putters were for "old guys" initially.  Then I got the impression that young guys who gave up on conventional putting techniques would try them out.  Either way, it's a way of giving in and admitting you can't do it any other way, and I don't think most touring pros would be willing to do that.  There is still some amount of ego involved here.

Brandon

[BDMplayer910]

Who cares how someone putt's? If you believe they help you putt better and made more putts, so what? If you want to carry that thing in your bag stick out farther than a driver and weigh down the bag, look almost idiotic with one in your hands on the green, so what?

As for the arguement of taking the skill out of putting, that's ridiculous, speed is so much harder to judge when you have on hand up so high and the other one controlling the path and force. you are not making a demise of the way the game is played, you are taking advantage of something that helps you putt better, make more shots, shoot lower scores, and enjoy the game more.

If someone is willing, especially on tour, to carry it around and basically say "hey, I struggle with putting, so I've moved to something that looks kind of foolish but helps me play better", than more power to you. You are almost showing the world your weakness. When it comes down to it, some people have to make money.

So no, they shouldn't be outlawed, not matter how many people use them, how well they use them, and how foolish they look while doing so.

[dbuck]

Erik mentioned his "distaste" for belly putters.

I don't have a problem with others using them if they think it helps, but--

I don't think I'd use one even if I thought it would help because:

1.They "don't fit my eye" (I think they are ugly)

2. I think they look funny sticking out of the bag like a flagpole or looks like you forgot to take your training aid out of the bag.

(of course I think I once said I wouldn't use a "toaster on a stick" driver, but I do.)

[nuck81]

Who cares what other people use.

No one has ever won a major with one, and the players that use them aren't regular winners either. Doesn't seem like much of an advantage to me

[dbuck]

Erik, I started this before I saw your poll in the equipment section; feel free to delete if you don't want the redundancy.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by dbuck

Erik, I started this before I saw your poll in the equipment section; feel free to delete if you don't want the redundancy.

You saw the word "distaste" in that very same thread, I think. I'll merge these. http://thesandtrap.com/forum/thread/6712/ban-belly-putters/90#post_596124

Originally Posted by dbuck

Erik mentioned his "distaste" for belly putters.

My distaste is for the "how." If someone wants to look like a dope with a belly putter, by all means. We'll leave the debate for what's tackier - a belly putter or playing in jeans - for another time. Ha ha. Just kidding.

[CowtownGrinder]

Originally Posted by iacas

Nope. Just a putter with a really long grip. He might have liked the (counter-) weighting. It wasn't anchored. He still "swung" the putter.

Don't you mean an "illegal grip" Erik? Reference your rule changes.

[jamo]

Originally Posted by CowtownGrinder

Don't you mean an "illegal grip" Erik?   Reference your rule changes.

Cabrera used a 39 inch putter when he won the Masters, but swung it like a regular putter. The only reason for a grip that big if you aren't anchoring is counterweighting, which could have been done by other methods (lead tape is the first one that comes to mind) if there was a rule such as the one iacas is suggesting in place. Putting on a large grip is simply much easier that trying to stick lead tape to the butt end of the inside of a putter shaft.

EDIT: Yeah, counterweighting: http://blogs.golf.com/equipment/2009/04/angel-cabreras-masters-clubs.html "Cabrera elected to stick with a unique putter he put in the bag at the WGC-Accenture Match Play Championship. It is a Ping i Series 1/2 Craz-E B, but Cabrera's is 39-inches long and features a grip designed for a belly putter that extends almost halfway down the shaft. Cabrera told me in Arizona that the large grip helps him properly balance the putter and enhances his feel on the greens."

[iacas]

Originally Posted by jamo

Cabrera used a 39 inch putter when he won the Masters, but swung it like a regular putter. The only reason for a grip that big if you aren't anchoring is counterweighting, which could have been done by other methods (lead tape is the first one that comes to mind) if there was a rule such as the one iacas is suggesting in place. Putting on a large grip is simply much easier that trying to stick lead tape to the butt end of the inside of a putter shaft.

They don't use lead tape. They just put a little foam around some brass-like weights and shove them down the shaft (or leave them close to the butt end) as required. We have the capability to do this with our Edel fitting system, for example.

[hero12]

To start, I hate, and wouldn't be comfortable with anything other than a 35'' blade putter, but I see no reason to ban longer putters. When tiger was at his best he used a regular putter. Jack used a regular putter. Can somebody name me a player who they feel is or was one of the greatest putters of all time and also uses a belly putter? I'd see a restriction on head size (mallets bother me) before shaft length.

[bigbear43]

Personnaly I voted no. while belly putters might not be conventional, or swung I see no advantage to them. I have tried belly putters out and find them hard to get a good stroke out of them and I also find them hard to aim. That's just from my experience with them. In my opinion if there was that much of an advantage more tour pros would use them.

[ND Fan]

This may be my last post on the subject but I am really compelled to interject. If there is one thing in golf that i feel I am an expert on, its this. The background on my personal experience is as follows. A little over 20 years ago I started getting the yips in college. I was on a full ride scholarship and and my ball striking then was literally tour quality. What I believe got the yips started was I was hitting the ball so well that I was shooting some excessively low numbers regardless of where I played. I went a three month stretch playing every single day without shooting above 67. I threw in several 64's, which I believe to be my personal brick wall. I have never broken that and doubt I ever will. I remember the specific round at what was then called River's Edge Golf Club in Ft. Myers, FL. One day I was hitting my irons dead on, the first five greens in reg and putting from 8 feet or less. I missed all but a tap in on those five greens. The short putts seemed to get longer after so many misses. I guess I started pressing myself to get the ball in the hole. Then it happened... My first yip! It was a three footer that was dead up hill and straight. After that something was immediately re wired in my brain and my hands have continued to fight each other ever since. If you have never had the yips its impossible to explain. I got to a point where I knew I wasn't going to make any putt unless the hole jumped in front of the ball. I could miss anything from 14 inches and out. Strange thing was I was perfectly comfortable from about 15 feet or more and put a good stroke on those. For about a month I made 10 times as many putts from 15-25 feet as I did from 2-3 feet. I literally only made maybe one in ten from that short distance. I switched to cross handed and thought I had found the answer. After a couple months of forgetting the yips and now my trouble were all behind me, or so I thought. The yips crept into the cross handed stroke and I started looking for the answer all over again. I tried every thing and just about everything worked better than yipping putts. I tried the following.... Left handed, closed my eyes, looked at the hole while putting, ultra short shafted putter. one handed, cross handed left handed, side saddle, split grip, thumbs together grip. I saw Orville Moody one afternoon putting with a long putter. I went out that night and made one. I used an old driver shaft with an extension. It was a whippy bastard looking thing but it worked. I used that ugly thing for about 2 months then I found a proper shaft and fitted to the that same Ping Anser head bent it upright and my game was almost back. My confidence had been shaken quite severally as this process took almost two years. The long putter for me was a life saver in a manner of speaking. Golf at that time was the most important thing in my life. I had worked so hard at it and it was all unraveling because of what I would attune to as a mental illness. The long putter didn't offer anything magical and many players can't stand to even try it. For many it is uncomfortable and embarrassing. For me it is a necessity. I still have a couple short putters in the basement and to this day I will yip just about anything inside of 15 feet. Why I have no idea. But my hands will not cooperate, they literally fight each other during the stroke. The difference lies in muscle memory. Now I am completing a stroke that is completely different and my hands don't need to work together. the left hand hinges while the right hand drives the putter. It works and for the last 10 year or so I have become a very good putter again. My ball striking isn't what it used to be and neither is this old over weight body, but getting married and two kids later golf is way down the list of important things in my life. I still play to between +2 and 0 handicap and have for the past 20 years and I really enjoy the game. The long putter is within the rules and I will use it until it is not. For those of you who say it's cheating. Try one out, most don't care for it. Because I am a good putter I have people constantly ask me about it for years. It has gotten to the point where I don't sell my old putters because I know somebody this week will likely ask me to try a long putter. I have two in my car just for this purpose. I carefully explain just how I think it should be done and give them one to try. Nine out of ten times they give it back in a couple days and say that's just not for me. If it were such an advantage people would push and shove their way to get one. It's not, it's just a different way of putting. For the 13 handicap who said he has taken the game serious for 2 years and thinks tour pros wouldn't use one because of ego. You couldn't be more wrong. Those guys have no ego when it comes to improving their game. Most of them would sell their soul to get back two shots per round. Sure most of them are a bunch of pre madonnas. I have known a few, they would shave their heads and and wear black lipstick if it helped them win. nothing is out of bounds in regard to performance, absolutely nothing. I have played this game for 30 years. I have been everything from a one time  great putter to the worlds worst putter back now to being a pretty good putter. I have used virtually every known method of putting I am aware of in my quest to find something better. For me, the long putter is it. It is not an unfair or any kind of universal advantage. There is better than a 90% chance that I could give you a long putter today and would putt much worse. How is that any kind of advantage? I would suggest y'all get over it. Until you are made president of the USGA or Royal and Ancient your opinion on the subject is mute.

It's just a game men. What ever you can do to enjoy it more that's within the rules do it. Life is too short and many holes are getting too long as we all get older.

How many of you use persimmon woods just for the tradition of the game?  I held out on even metal woods until the early 90's.  I didn't need the distance then and I loved my stock pile of old MacGregor drivers.  Don't pretend you're somehow a bastion of tradition when you step up with your $400 Titanium Driver.