Slicing with an Inside Out Path

[iacas]

Originally Posted by norrisedgar

I call that a shank slice, I've never found a more 'official' name for it. This type of motion will result in a ball that starts way right and goes farther right, just like you said. It is even theoretically possible to shank this kind of move because you will be leading the hosel into the ball.

Yeah, Trevino played a "shank slice?" Huh?

Originally Posted by norrisedgar

Ok maybe I wasn't clear enough. The dotted line in the diagram is your intended target line i.e. where you want the ball to start on it's flight. Body alignment doesn't come into a discusiion on ball flight laws. Granted when trying to achieve any of these flights you need to think about body alignment but the body has no impact on the fundamental laws of mechanics.

Body alignment absolutely comes into the discussion when talking about ball flight (not the "laws" themselves, but in ball flight). Pulls tend to go lower. Pushes tend to go higher.

If body alignment didn't come into play then EVERY good draw would be a push-draw and EVERY good fade would be a pull-fade.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by norrisedgar

Ok maybe I wasn't clear enough. The dotted line in the diagram is your intended target line i.e.

Let me clarify this further.  By your definition if the dotted line is the target line and you open the stance up and hit a shot straight down the fairway your target, it would be "E" a straight shot.  You know and I know that because the body lines are out to the left the shot is actually "H" straight push.  So no the dotted line is not the target line it is the body line.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by cipher

Let me clarify this further.  By your definition if the dotted line is the target line and you open the stance up and hit a shot straight down the fairway your target, it would be "E" a straight shot.  You know and I know that because the body lines are out to the left the shot is actually "H" straight push.  So no the dotted line is not the target line it is the body line.

Nathan, I think the better point to make is that the shots are described relative to the body alignment because that is more informative. You can hit any of those nine shots to a hole given many different body alignments, but only three of those are going to be good shots if you restrict the lines to pointing at the target.

As I said above, a push-draw and a pull-draw can both hit the ball towards a target, and both have been used to win major championships. Pull-draws tend to be lower, though, and pushes higher. Trevino played a push-fade (and still hit it low), Nicklaus too (and hit it high), but pull-fades have won plenty of majors as well.

Describing those ball flights relative to the body alignment provides MORE information. Describing them relative to the target provides less.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by cipher

Let me clarify this further.  By your definition if the dotted line is the target line and you open the stance up and hit a shot straight down the fairway your target, it would be "E" a straight shot.  You know and I know that because the body lines are out to the left the shot is actually "H" straight push.  So no the dotted line is not the target line it is the body line.

I have to agree, it can't be the body line. The target line is determined by your swing if you hit the ball with the sweet spot hitting the center of the back of the ball, with a square clubface. This will be the swings target line because it produces a straight shot. If the sweet spot gets outside that, its a pull swing, if its inside its a push swing. Most cases it will mimic the body lines, but in some, players can aim way left end still hit it down a target line, and its not a push.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by saevel25

I have to agree, it can't be the body line. The target line is determined by your swing if you hit the ball with the sweet spot hitting the center of the back of the ball, with a square clubface. This will be the swings target line because it produces a straight shot. If the sweet spot gets outside that, its a pull swing, if its inside its a push swing. Most cases it will mimic the body lines, but in some, players can aim way left end still hit it down a target line, and its not a push.

Well, saevel, we'll disagree on that one. I prefer to call Trevino's shot a push-fade and Paul Azinger's shot a pull-fade. Sam Snead often played a pull-draw, and Billy Casper played a push-draw (or a straight draw sometimes).

Like I said, there's more information there than saying both Trevino and Azinger played pull-fades (they'd have to be to finish at the target) or that Snead and Casper both played push-draws (same reason).

At the end of the day though they're just lines, and if you DEFINE them, they can mean whatever you want. I just typically DEFINE them as being relative to the body lines for the points I've repeated a few times.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by iacas

Nathan, I think the better point to make is that the shots are described relative to the body alignment because that is more informative. You can hit any of those nine shots to a hole given many different body alignments, but only three of those are going to be good shots if you restrict the lines to pointing at the target.

As I said above, a push-draw and a pull-draw can both hit the ball towards a target, and both have been used to win major championships. Pull-draws tend to be lower, though, and pushes higher. Trevino played a push-fade (and still hit it low), Nicklaus too (and hit it high), but pull-fades have won plenty of majors as well.

Describing those ball flights relative to the body alignment provides MORE information. Describing them relative to the target provides less.

If I could have explained it this well, believe me I would have. Ha ha!  Thanks for explaining what I could not.

[nowayjoze]

Quick question with driver. If you're hitting on the up swing on the tee, wouldn't the path always be on left (out to in)? So how do you hit a draw when the club is swinging down right on that path, then swinging up to the left on the swing arc? Hope that makes sense. I can only hit draws with clubs that are not on the tee or hitting up, and this completely confuses me.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by iacas

Well, saevel, we'll disagree on that one. I prefer to call Trevino's shot a push-fade and Paul Azinger's shot a pull-fade. Sam Snead often played a pull-draw, and Billy Casper played a push-draw (or a straight draw sometimes).

Like I said, there's more information there than saying both Trevino and Azinger played pull-fades (they'd have to be to finish at the target) or that Snead and Casper both played push-draws (same reason).

At the end of the day though they're just lines, and if you DEFINE them, they can mean whatever you want. I just typically DEFINE them as being relative to the body lines for the points I've repeated a few times.

I can see were point of reference helps out in determining what needs looked at, so body lines are a bit easier to set a baseline to show what type of shot you want to classify it as. I'll go with it, it sounds easier than what i said.

Originally Posted by nowayjoze

Quick question with driver. If you're hitting on the up swing on the tee, wouldn't the path always be on left (out to in)? So how do you hit a draw when the club is swinging down right on that path, then swinging up to the left on the swing arc?

Hope that makes sense. I can only hit draws with clubs that are not on the tee or hitting up, and this completely confuses me.

clubface slightly closed to the swing path = draw

[cipher]

Originally Posted by nowayjoze

Quick question with driver. If you're hitting on the up swing on the tee, wouldn't the path always be on left (out to in)? So how do you hit a draw when the club is swinging down right on that path, then swinging up to the left on the swing arc?

Hope that makes sense. I can only hit draws with clubs that are not on the tee or hitting up, and this completely confuses me.

You can close the stance a bit more and swing out to the right(for a righty).  You will hit a bit of a pull draw.

[nowayjoze]

This is how my current stance is. I'll close my stance 5*, and club face is already 5* left on upswing to so I can hit a straight shot. So I'm assuming I'm hitting a straight pull with a closed stance. I hit a fairly decent amount of FWs this way with good distance (250 yds avg). Is there anything wrong with current set-up? Even if I swing right, the club head will be going left on the upswing since its on a tee, right? I'm just trying to learn how to hit an actual draw for more distance, and still cannot wrap my head around hitting a draw on a tee shot.

[norrisedgar]

I don't know if you guys are just doing this to wind me up but i'll have one more go.

To emphasise the point that the body alignment is not a good choice for the dashed line imagine hitting a shot with your entire body facing the target i.e feet, hips and shoulders. It is possible to make a sort of swing like this and make fairly decent contact. If as you guys say the dashed line should be the body alignment the diagram would look like this

Now how in the world is this diagram helpful?

I mean if the dashed line in the other diagrams and in the diagram above were both representing body alignment then all the diagrams make no sense as the one above has no reference point to predict ball flight in relation to the target.

[cipher]

Originally Posted by norrisedgar

I don't know if you guys are just doing this to wind me up but i'll have one more go.

To emphasise the point that the body alignment is not a good choice for the dashed line imagine hitting a shot with your entire body facing the target i.e feet, hips and shoulders. It is possible to make a sort of swing like this and make fairly decent contact. If as you guys say the dashed line should be the body alignment the diagram would look like this

Now how in the world is this diagram helpful?

I mean if the dashed line in the other diagrams and in the diagram above were both representing body alignment then all the diagrams make no sense as the one above has no reference point to predict ball flight in relation to the target.

I give up.  Yep we want to spend this much time winding you up. You have all the information here I don't know what else to say. It is not the alignment of where the chest is pointing at address but rather the alignment of the feet hips and shoulders, as if you maybe put an alignment stick through your front two belt loops and look down the line where that is pointing.  That is essentially the dotted line in the other diagram.   THIS BODY LINE IS THE REFERENCE POINT TO PREDICT THE RELATIVE BALL FLIGHT.

Please read this again:

Originally Posted by iacas

Nathan, I think the better point to make is that the shots are described relative to the body alignment because that is more informative. You can hit any of those nine shots to a hole given many different body alignments, but only three of those are going to be good shots if you restrict the lines to pointing at the target.

As I said above, a push-draw and a pull-draw can both hit the ball towards a target, and both have been used to win major championships. Pull-draws tend to be lower, though, and pushes higher. Trevino played a push-fade (and still hit it low), Nicklaus too (and hit it high), but pull-fades have won plenty of majors as well.

Describing those ball flights relative to the body alignment provides MORE information. Describing them relative to the target provides less

I am going to have to check out of this thread before I loose my mind...too late.

[iacas]

Originally Posted by norrisedgar

I don't know if you guys are just doing this to wind me up but i'll have one more go.

No, but apparently you're not capable of reading my posts or understanding them.

Describing the line as relative to the body gives you more information than describing them relative to the target (in which case 3 shots are good, 4 suck, and 2 are flat out terrible).

If you're on a Flightscope or Trackman, everything's target relative because they have no awareness of your body. That's good and bad - if the thing isn't aligned to your target well, you can hit a push-draw that it calls a pull-draw (per body alignments).

[norrisedgar]

I don't think we disagree on anything to be honest we are just arguing over semantics. I have just read the article on ball flight laws you link to in your 'five key' article and I don't disagree with a single word of it. :-)

[EverythingGolf]

The ball flight laws in the diagram are relative to the target line. If you have a hard time swinging with an outward path to hit a push draw then you can aim lets say 10 yards to the right of the target line, swing along your body alignment and hit a small pull draw to get it back to the target line. Like Erik said there are many ways to get it done.

[mdl]

Originally Posted by LI Hacker

Just curious but I have a pretty aggressive move forward with my hips to start the downswing and I am wondering if I actual have too much lateral motion and am moving my swing arc forward which causes me to have the face open at impact. I will try to get a video up today but I do keep my head and my upper body back for the most part but my lower body moves a significant deal forward. This has helped me hit my irons much more flush but I wonder if its hurting my swing the driver.

As usual I'm most likely completely wrong here :)

I fight a version of this problem.  Though from video it's really either some but not enough lateral movement versus what should be about the right amount of lateral hip movement.  When I move my hips as much as I "should", I tend to stand up too early.  I've got decent hand eye, so my natural reaction is to super weaken my left side to let me still drag the club face in relatively in plane, instead of way OTT.  From that position it's basically impossible to consistently and naturally close the face, so unless I really snap my wrists across it trying to close the face and hit huge slices or pulls, I end up hitting big push-fades with a club path more or less straight down the target line.

Aggressive hip movement is fine.  Gotta be a slide, not a big twist to start, and you can't extend/stand too early.  Then you can keep a strong left side and keep your head "behind" the ball and get consistent face closing without coming OTT.

[Wally]

Ok and I know without seeing my swing its difficult, I was just trying to see like if that ball flight was even possible with an inside out path or if just didn't make any sense. I will work on getting a video of my actual swing up soon.

You don't even know, haha. I have a "trick" shot in my arsenal where the ball flight is a S-curve. That's right, it curves in the shape of an S. I don't know how it's even physically possible, but it's a cool looking shot. I am also the master of hitting what I like to call a "Driver Flop."

[Slice of Life]

Originally Posted by Wally

You don't even know, haha. I have a "trick" shot in my arsenal where the ball flight is a S-curve. That's right, it curves in the shape of an S. I don't know how it's even physically possible, but it's a cool looking shot. I am also the master of hitting what I like to call a "Driver Flop."

Is that one of those 100 yard sky balls? I've mastered those as well...haha