Lipping out Putts

[D-Man]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

I see what you mean. I've been having the same problem with my irons for a very long time!

For my chipping, I don't do it on a mat but on some grass practice area, being very similar to the course.

However, just today I changed my strategy and started practicing pitching with my 9-iron (15, 20, 30 and 40 yards) instead of always using my Sw for the short approach.

I really had the feeling the 9-iron was much more consistent and easier to control than the Sw, so I'm gonna stop using the Sw for approach shots and only use it in the bunkers.

I think this will make a big difference and save me quite some strokes (and frustration).

For shot's that are short like 70 yards in, I've dialed in my wedges with a 9 to 3 swing.  Basically you are only going half way back in the back swing and only following through half way, hence 9 and 3 like on a clock.  My 50 wedge is 70 yards on a 9 to 3, my 56 is 45 yards and my 60 is 25 yards.  Then inside 20 yards, I'm usually pitching with my 50.  Around the green it depends if I'm just off the green and how my lie is, if I want it to stay low and run, I'll use my 8 iron.

[pipergsm]

Just played 9 holes again, finished in 47 (par 36), which is OK for me.

Today I forced myself not to think about the game, but about my favorite music, and it worked!

Much less stress, much less mishits. Only 3 or 4 real mishits over the 9 holes, including 1 drive.

Unfortunately, bad luck knocked on my door 3 times, making me need at least 5 strokes more than I should have.

Hole number 3, par 4, 350 yards, dogleg to the right:

with a water-stream crossing the entire FW 100 yards in front of the green, I limit my drive, since I usually can't carry it 260 yards, often resulting in the ball rolling into the water.

Ball stops just over 200 yards and I hit my 6-iron, but way to short, leaving me with a pitch from about 70 yards.

A bad bounce to the right and my ball ends up in the right side bunker.

Bunkers are my nightmare: either I follow through too strong and over-hit the green, or I don't follow through enough and the ball stays in the bunker!

Today, it was the first option, forcing me to pitch again to get the ball on the green, but about 18 feet from the hole.

2-putt, triple bogey.

Without that bad bounce, It would have been par or bogey.

Hole number 5, par 4, 298 yards:

the green has 2 entrances, 1 left and 1 right, separated by a bunker.

The right entrance however is also partially blocked by a tree.

My drive was a little too much to the right,so I had no choice but to go for the right entrance.

Used my 9-iron to pitch it from about 70 yards, but just in front of the entrance, the ball makes a bad bounce to the left and bounces back on the tree.

Pitch again from 15 yard and bring the ball at 3 feet from the hole, 1-putt, I save par but would probably have made birdie without that tree.

Hole number 8, par 4, 268 yards.

The green is protected by a water-stream, which usually swallows my ball when I drive it good (+240 yards), so I limit my drive again, ending up rater short, 70 yards in front of the water.

By that time, I start losing my music-focus, the stress sets in again and I top my 9-iron, ball goes into the water.

Chip over, but it's uphill across the water, and the ball bounces back to settle on the very edge of the water, leaving me with a very difficult pitch.

Afraid to under-hit it, I do the opposite (off course!), and the ball settles at the other edge of the green, about 60 feet from the hole.

Now it's a strong down-hill lie and hitting it a little too fast will send the ball into the water again, so I leave it way short, causing myself to 3-putt.

Overall, however, I can't complain too much.

The relaxation-trick seems to work, and pitching my irons instead of my Sw, like I did before, has proven to be much more consistent and easier.

[pipergsm]

Oh, by the way, I think I just discovered why my ball sometimes bounces back out of the hole.

Inside the hole, there is a cup and a plastic ring on top of the cup.

However, the diameter of the plastic ring is a fraction bigger than that of the cup, leaving a metal edge about 1.5 inch deep inside the hole.

I believe this metal edge will sometimes cause the ball to bounce out (not lip out!), when it hits the back of the hole, and thus the metal edge.

Has anyone else seen or experienced this before?

.

[That is Good]

Yes, a few years ago and it happened twice during one round.

It was obvious that some of the cups were not set at the proper depth.

[MacDutch]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

Without that bad bounce, It would have been par or bogey.

Sure you would.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pipergsm

I save par but would probably have made birdie without that tree.

Yes, no doubt about that

You hit all your shots yourself and are entitled to all the (mis)fortune you get by hitting it the way you did.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

Oh, by the way, I think I just discovered why my ball sometimes bounces back out of the hole.

Inside the hole, there is a cup and a plastic ring on top of the cup.

However, the diameter of the plastic ring is a fraction bigger than that of the cup, leaving a metal edge about 1.5 inch deep inside the hole.

I believe this metal edge will sometimes cause the ball to bounce out (not lip out!), when it hits the back of the hole, and thus the metal edge.

Has anyone else seen or experienced this before?

.

I think I've seen in once or twice in my 40 years of playing (and never happened to me, only to someone I was playing with).  Most courses don't use that plastic ring and it still doesn't bounce the ball out of the hole unless you are horribly unlucky.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I think I've seen in once or twice in my 40 years of playing (and never happened to me, only to someone I was playing with).  Most courses don't use that plastic ring and it still doesn't bounce the ball out of the hole unless you are horribly unlucky.

I have hit a putt (once) that was dead center and not bad speed that hit the plastic cup at the back and bounced out of the hole.

There wasn't a ring used but the actual cup was close to the top. What had likely happened was that when somebody before me pulled the flag stick the cup came up with it and didn't tap it back down with the flag stick (it happens).

Also very easy when it's very wet for the entire plug to not come out of the ground, leaving a hole that's not deep enough. If someone was in a hurry, or not paying attention, or just didn't care, the top of the cup would be too close to ground level. Wasn't the case when it happened to me because I tamped the cup down for the next group.

[pipergsm]

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I think I've seen in once or twice in my 40 years of playing (and never happened to me, only to someone I was playing with).  Most courses don't use that plastic ring and it still doesn't bounce the ball out of the hole unless you are horribly unlucky.

It happened to me twice today and 2 or 3 times before.

Both shots from 3-4 feet and normal (slow) ball speed.

I think it's not the plastic ring that bounces it back, but the edge of the cup under it, because it sticks out.

Imagine putting 2 rings on top of each-other, but the bottom ring is a little smaller than the one on top.

The only way to avoid a bounce-out is to play the ball so slow that it doesn't hit the back of the hole, but then you risk the ball stopping short or being pulled away by the break.

[cipher]

Take a photo and post it here of one of the cups and the depth maybe so everyone can see.

[pipergsm]

Originally Posted by cipher

Take a photo and post it here of one of the cups and the depth maybe so everyone can see.

Good idea, I'll do that, but it might take a few days.

[saevel25]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

It happened to me twice today and 2 or 3 times before.

Both shots from 3-4 feet and normal (slow) ball speed.

I think it's not the plastic ring that bounces it back, but the edge of the cup under it, because it sticks out.

Imagine putting 2 rings on top of each-other, but the bottom ring is a little smaller than the one on top.

The only way to avoid a bounce-out is to play the ball so slow that it doesn't hit the back of the hole, but then you risk the ball stopping short or being pulled away by the break.

To get a ball to hit the back of the hole, you hitting the ball really firm. You got a lot of lee way before the ball comes up short.

[3putter]

Oh, the chipping woes of a beginner! I've been there, and still doing that sometimes. Like many have said here, practice the heck out of it, after a while, it'll be like second nature to you. The other thing is to just chill the heck out, I play with 12 handicappers who miss certain chips occasionally, and it's all for the same reason....they were thinking and forgot to chip the actual ball. Step up to your ball and do exactly what you do during practice. Never try to do something you don't practice. Trust me, that will save you a bunch of strokes.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

It happened to me twice today and 2 or 3 times before.

Both shots from 3-4 feet and normal (slow) ball speed.

Since I have hit one putt where that happened, where I'm pretty sure it would have gone in if the cup hadn't been to high, out of no telling how many thousands of putts, I can't see it happening 2 times in a day (or a year for that matter). Even the one I hit was going just a touch too fast or it would have gone in.

Another point: The plastic ring is less likely to bounce a ball out of the hole than the cup (because it's too thin to bounce the ball upward). Also with the ring it's not likely the actual cup is too high because there wouldn't be room for the ring, and the ring itself provides a buffer to the width of the actual cup catching enough of the ball to bounce it upward.

Bottom line is that any "slow" putt is going to go in even if the cup is too high. Slightly faster could catch the cup if it was high but would be less likely with a ring than without a ring.

[pipergsm]

Originally Posted by MS256

Since I have hit one putt where that happened out of no telling how many thousands, that I'm pretty sure would have gone in if not for the cup being too high, I can't see it happening 2 times in a day (or a year for that matter). Even the one I hit was going just a touch too fast or it would have gone in.

Another point: The plastic ring is less likely to bounce a ball out of the hole than the cup (because it's too thin to bounce the ball upward). Also with the ring it's not likely the actual cup is too high because there wouldn't be room for the ring, and the ring itself provides a buffer to the width of the actual cup catching enough of the ball to bounce it upward.

Bottom line is that any "slow" putt is going to go in even if the cup is too high. Slightly faster could catch the cup if it was high but would be less likely with a ring than without a ring.

I think you missed the place where I said that the diameter of the cup is a fraction smaller as the one of the plastic ring, making the edge of the cup stick out (inward the hole) from under the plastic ring, which has a depth of only 1.5 inch.

I believe it is this edge, not the ring, which make the ball bounce out.

It happened on 2 consecutive holes today, and in both holes I noticed the same phenomenon: the cup-edge sticking out from under the plastic ring.

It's only about 2 mm, but I think it's enough to cause the bouncing-out.

[Fourputt]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

I think I've seen in once or twice in my 40 years of playing (and never happened to me, only to someone I was playing with).  Most courses don't use that plastic ring and it still doesn't bounce the ball out of the hole unless you are horribly unlucky.

It happened to me twice today and 2 or 3 times before.

Both shots from 3-4 feet and normal (slow) ball speed.

I think it's not the plastic ring that bounces it back, but the edge of the cup under it, because it sticks out.

Imagine putting 2 rings on top of each-other, but the bottom ring is a little smaller than the one on top.

The only way to avoid a bounce-out is to play the ball so slow that it doesn't hit the back of the hole, but then you risk the ball stopping short or being pulled away by the break.

I know exactly what you are talking about, but it shouldn't happen if the hole is cut correctly (the top of the insert should be a full inch below the lip).  The ring you are talking about is more aesthetic than functional.  It's only there to keep the edges of the hole from breaking down due to heavy traffic.  It won't help or hurt the problem you are talking about.  They don't use it for PGA tournaments (they paint the dirt white above the insert for visibility) because they don't have to worry about heavy traffic wearing down the sides of the hole.

[MS256]

Originally Posted by pipergsm

I think you missed the place where I said that the diameter of the cup is a fraction smaller as the one of the plastic ring, making the edge of the cup stick out (inward the hole) from under the plastic ring, which has a depth of only 1.5 inch.

I believe it is this edge, not the ring, which make the ball bounce out.

It happened on 2 consecutive holes today, and in both holes I noticed the same phenomenon: the cup-edge sticking out from under the plastic ring.

It's only about 2 mm, but I think it's enough to cause the bouncing-out.

No. I didn't miss that at all, which is why I mentioned that the plastic ring actually provides a buffer to the full width of the top of the cup, which without the ring is a much wider shelf for the ball to bounce off of.

If the cup is 1 1/2 inches below ground level the ball is going in the hole on a normal speed putt.

I set all of the pins where I work twice a week so I'm aware of what they look like.

[saturday]

When putting, I usually try to calculate the speed of the ball such that, if I miss the hole, it will not pass it by more than 2 feet, often resulting in the fact that my ball comes up just a little short. This is not my biggest problem however. Quite often, I see my ball going in (half) and coming out again (lipping out?). Is this caused by a specific flaw in the way I put, or is it rather bad luck and will it get better as I practice more? Thanks for the answers.

I wanted to say this from the day this thread started. You lip out because you missed the hole. There's no better answer, Yeesh.

[Ernest Jones]

I wanted to say this from the day this thread started. You lip out because you missed the hole. There's no better answer, Yeesh.

That's crazy talk. :-P