My Swing (JonMA1)

[Jack Watson]

@JonMA1

You are a frustrating person to read.  I agree with everything Iacas has said.

FUrthermore,  and I apologize and will never post on your myswing thread again, but your intent is problematic at best.  You claim to know everything you are doing wrong but COMplain that progress is unattainable.  My suggestion is to think about that and listen to Iacas and others.

Its not that I think you are a bad guy,  you seem nice enough.

 

[JonMA1]

15 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

I agree with everything Iacas has said.

That makes two of us. But that doesn't really change the issue.

16 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

but your intent is problematic at best.

Sorry, but I don't understand this. My intent is not problematic - or at least it shouldn't be for any one. My intent was to vent frustration about my inability to instill any gains anywhere close to unconscious competence.

16 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

You claim to know everything you are doing wrong

Where in any of my posts have I claimed I know everything?

I know a flip when I see one... or my head moving 6" in a few different directions throughout out the swing... or my lead hip staying far behind my lead ankle at impact.

What I believe is that too much head movement is likely going to result in inconsistent contact. I know that if I pivot off my back foot it creates a perfect recipe for flipping, chunking, topping and a poor swing path - which in turn creates the need for all kinds of compensation with the club face and unpredictable ball flight.

What do you want me to say?

What I don't know is the root cause of most of these things... why steps forward don't stick. Is it because I'm lazy at practicing, too stupid to realize what's being taught, or lousy at being able to feel WTF my body is doing. I also don't know how I can make a centered hip turn for over a year and then suddenly have my hips start sliding back. Or why I can make 20 practice swings with high hands and a full shoulder turn, and then fail miserably at coming anywhere close to these positions when I go to hit a ball.

16 hours ago, Jack Watson said:

but COMplain that progress is unattainable

This is way I gave you reputation. You are 100% correct and I appreciate the candor. I need to do a better job at accepting how fortunate I am at being able to play golf at any level because there are several billion people in this world who wish THAT was the worst problem in their lives.

---

@Jack Watson, post on this thread or don't... it doesn't really make a difference whether you or anyone else does. I almost always appreciate the conversation and I take the suggestions seriously... yours regarding the Ernest Jones book included.

[JonMA1]

I'm changing my objective and the way I practice a bit for the next couple of months.

I'm still going to use the 5s's of good practice, but am going to put more weight towards consistency and shot results than in trying to improve on the keys and priorities - at least until some consistency shows up.

My belief is that the indoor/range/course swings differ so much that focusing on improving my indoor swing is the wrong tack. Reducing the variation between the three will be my objective until the season starts. I'm still working on the "how".

While a simulator would be nice, I'm forced to use what I have at my disposal which, unfortunately, doesn't include much in the way of what's needed the most - outdoor access.

This is what I've come up with so far...

Establish a baseline or target by using an average indoor swing. I've created a rating of Zero-4, with "4" being the best of my potential, "zero" being a complete fail, and 2.5 being the current mean (again, compared to my potential). Please forgive my ignorance when it comes to this sort of testing.

I've divided the sample tests into two categories, 1) Results and 2) Mechanics.

Results

Testing results indoors is bit tougher as I'm hitting into a net 6' or so away. But I can tell good contact both by feel and how high it launches when it hits the net. Direction would be determined by how close to the exact center of the net. It's not at all accurate but is the best I can do. Outdoor shots will be a lot easier to accurately measure results.

Using my old Hogan 5i blade as a test club...

For contact, on the scale of 0-4, "zero" would be a whiff and "4" would be a purely struck ball. "1" would be a shank or severe top, and 3 would be clean contact. Anything with 2.5 -3 would provide correct distance for a GIR. A "4" would probably exceed my target so "3" would be my upper limit.

As far as direction, "1" would be a shank or a very poor hook or slice, "3" would provide good enough dispersion for a GIR, and 4 would be within a couple yards of the center of the green, L&R.

Mechanics

I've picked just a few important categories... Centered Hip Turn, Full Shoulder Turn, Weight Shift and Steady Head. "Zero" represents a complete failure, "4" is as good as I'll ever get, and 2.5" is average for my indoor swing. (The mean may change with enough samples.)

The steps are to record several samples with a size of 10 (or so) swings. I'll indicate after each swing the contact and starting line number while recording, and rate the mechanics quality as I review the video. The last column represents the four sub-catagories averaged.

The objective is to see how closely I can apply these indoor-swing standards to my range, and ultimately, my course swings.

It's not on my spreadsheet yet, but I'm thinking about putting a column of "Feel" for each of the 4 mechanics sub-categories to compare that with the actual results... it might be useful.

My first indoor sample:

P.S.: I know this is likely a dumb idea, but it's winter and it passes the time.

[JonMA1]

I was able to find a small, mucky area of turf without snow on it today. So I grabbed a club, some balls and my cell phone to take video. The plan was to see if I could take anything I've been doing inside and apply it to my outside swing.

I've been working on lengthening my back swing because it seems to help with my timing. It's not like I'm getting a really good shoulder turn, but even a little delay helps me start my hip turn and weight shift first. I've given up on the steady head for now and it doesn't seem to affect my contact as I thought it might.

Unfortunately, my camera angle was pretty poor this afternoon. Still, it was good enough to tell me how I did. Centered hip turn and weight forward on every shot as far as I could tell. My backswing was not nearly as full as it has been during inside practice, but there was just enough to delay my hands starting down to get my weight and hips going early. I really felt like I was pulling club through impact instead pushing it through (just a feel, I know).

Of the 15 or so outside shots, only two were of poor contact. There were a couple that were thinner than I like, but most were clean and a couple were 4's - meaning, about as good as I can get. I was happy with contact and direction considering I was hitting with an old 5iron blade, out of mucky lies, in the cold, and against the wind. 

Today's practice told me that shots which feel solid while hitting into a net are probably good shots.

The problem has always been in keeping any positive changes I sometimes experience in the winter and early spring through out the year. I know the success the longer backswing has brought will likely fail at some point. But I have to somehow continue to keep my hip turn centered and really get that weight to my left side.

[Lihu]

Get a Mevo.

[Bennett Stone]

Try to take that club back a little farther with more shoulder and hit turn and accelerate through impact more should help with distance :)

[JonMA1]

2 hours ago, Lihu said:

Get a Mevo.

I know... I was drooling over the prospect of getting one when you guys all started posting your numbers. OTOH, I need - or would like - to know the lateral ball flight which brings another $1400 into play. Over the last couple of years I've been looking at all the simulator and flight monitor options. In the end, it just comes down to being fiscally responsible. While a Mevo or any other device would help make winters less boring, I seriously doubt it would make much of a difference in game improvement until I can learn to take my off-the-mat, indoor swing out to the course.

50 minutes ago, Bennett Stone said:

Try to take that club back a little farther with more shoulder and hit turn and accelerate through impact more should help with distance :)

Thanks for the advice @Bennett Stone. I assume you meant "hip" turn? 

What you're saying seems to be what I'm experiencing during indoor practices. I'm not sure why that is, other than a better shoulder turn sometimes keeps me from rushing the downswing which, in turn, allows a better weight shift. That weight shift seems to help in at least two other areas - better inline impact (shaft lean) and a more in-to-out club path.

That said, I wasn't getting as much shoulder turn hitting outside yesterday - less than 90° - and my ball flight was more of a fade. Along with other issues, I can't seem to get a good shoulder turn in my swing. But I agree, it's an important piece to work on and one of the things I look at when evaluating my swing.

[Lihu]

26 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I know... I was drooling over the prospect of getting one when you guys all started posting your numbers. OTOH, I need - or would like - to know the lateral ball flight which brings another $1400 into play. Over the last couple of years I've been looking at all the simulator and flight monitor options. In the end, it just comes down to being fiscally responsible.

Left and right is nice, but Mevo by itself really helps with basic ball striking stuff.

 

26 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

While a Mevo or any other device would help make winters less boring, I seriously doubt it would make much of a difference in game improvement until I can learn to take my off-the-mat, indoor swing out to the course.

If the lie is flat then hitting off grass and off a mat should be the same. On really funny lies, that's a different issue.

I think the main thing about people having issues with mat versus grass is just that most people tend to hit a bit fat. Once you get rid of the fat shots and start hitting more thin that kind of goes away. Thin is also bad on the course BTW, but not nearly as bad as fat.

There are lots of drills for getting out of the habit of hitting fat as it's a very common problem.

Also, practice should be fun. . .

[iacas]

38 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I know... I was drooling over the prospect of getting one when you guys all started posting your numbers. OTOH, I need - or would like - to know the lateral ball flight which brings another $1400 into play.

You don't need that, though. Even into a net. Look at where the ball hits the net.

I agree with what @Lihu said about it being great for other things: ball contact, partial wedge yardages, etc.

38 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

In the end, it just comes down to being fiscally responsible. While a Mevo or any other device would help make winters less boring, I seriously doubt it would make much of a difference in game improvement until I can learn to take my off-the-mat, indoor swing out to the course.

Well, I can't comment on that. May be more than a 5% of a mental thing for you.

[JonMA1]

Don't get me wrong @iacas and @Lihu, at $500 and how accurate it is, I can see the benefits. As I said, I would look over the Mevo thread and think how nice it would be to know how good or poor a shot was as opposed to how solidly it felt. Then to associate those results with a feel - even better.

The amazing thing about golf club technology is how incredibly consistent the distance is if the ball is struck well. In the case of my SGI irons, the difference between "well-struck" and "just OK-struck" isn't that great.

Of course, my version of consistent distance is very different than a good player's... 

23 minutes ago, iacas said:

Well, I can't comment on that. May be more than a 5% of a mental thing for you.

Ha ha ha. Probably. I am working hard on this being a non-issue this year. I haven't explored medication.... yet.

Seriously, if you only knew how easy it was for me to accomplish my goals inside compared to outside. That's why I'm so encouraged when I'm able to experience even a little success as I did yesterday afternoon.

Thanks guys. 

[billchao]

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

Seriously, if you only knew how easy it was for me to accomplish my goals inside compared to outside.

You should get giant murals of a golf course printed to put up in your garage so it looks like you're on a tee box while you're practicing inside, then being outside won't be a big transition mentally 

[iacas]

6 minutes ago, billchao said:

You should get giant murals of a golf course printed to put up in your garage so it looks like you're on a tee box while you're practicing inside, then being outside won't be a big transition mentally 

Pipe in the sounds of some guy cursing two greens away, some birds, a leaf blower… sprinkle some goose poop around. It'll be just like the course!

[nevets88]

Geese guava for that finishing touch.

[JonMA1]

1 hour ago, billchao said:

You should get giant murals of a golf course printed to put up in your garage so it looks like you're on a tee box while you're practicing inside, then being outside won't be a big transition mentally 

Or... drag my net around the course and place it 10' further away than normal on every shot. Wait, that wouldn't be feasible. It's against the ROG.

[JonMA1]

After putting up trim in the house for most of the day, I took a break and took some video while recording shot quality. I'm starting to compile a lot of data and it helps to see what mechanics, if any, are different between the good shots and the poor ones.

Of the four categories I've selected (see chart on post # 273), three of the four seem to have a stronger impact on shot quality. Steady head has had the least impact while centered hip turn has had the greatest. I've yet to run any kind of regression on it,... that might be a bit over-the-top. While the variation is usually slight, it can sometimes be very different. There are a few angles and positions throughout the swing that let me know what's going on. How I finish tells a lot and could be used on the course when I can't record video.

Certainly, I can have poor results with good mechanics and vice versa, but when I'm "fighting" to execute the mechanics... when the swing feels awkward, that's when bad mechanics and bad results tend to show up.

My inside swing is still a bit better and comes about far more automatically (in regards to what I'm trying to accomplish, not what others consider a good swing).

My outside swing at times is pretty good (again, to what I'm working on), but it's still a struggle and requires more concentration. It's far from automatic as it is when swinging inside. On average, I'm still not getting my hands as high on the BS, nor am I'm getting as much weight forward on the outside swing. But any type of change towards my goal is welcome.

Off Topic -

Spoiler

 

@billchao, @iacas, @nevets88 - I took your advice and modified my practice area. Looking forward to shooting in the 70's soon!!!

Question... Of all the things that are wrong with this images - and there are a lot - which is the worst?

 

wait for it...

 

wait for it...

 

It's the denim jeans! I wouldn't be caught dead wearing those on the course.

 

 

[JonMA1]

Decided to go to the TC Golf Center and work on all parts of my game. They have a very nice putting green. It's quite large with a lot of breaks and what seems to be a lot of speed. They also have some chipping mats.

Anyway, since there's a lot of room, I was able to take a few swings with the driver and record a couple. I was working on the path. As the video indicates, there are some issues I didn't realize were going on. Specifically, the shaft angle on the take away and downswing at A2 and A6. Not sure of the terminology, but it seems way "outside". It isn't always like that so I'm not sure what's up with that.

Anyway, there are the normal issues of my head moving up and down, coming out of posture, and those #@$ %@!&ed "hitches". But I'm pretty happy with my weight shift and shoulder turn. It's not as good as it could be, but at least there is some.

The DTL driver shot was just terrible. When I got home this afternoon I went out and hit into the field to try and correct coming across the ball... it's a work in progress.

 

[JonMA1]

This is the kind of thing that makes me insane. Been working on eliminating the hip slide and felt there had been some progress even when hitting out into the field. 

For the last several days - including the video from my last post - I've been experiencing lower ball flight and consistent hooks. Today I went out and got almost nothing in the way of decent contact. A lot of shanks and skulled shots. So I thought I'd take video to see what was going on.

I set up the camera and started hitting beautiful shots, high, long and straight. (Go figure.)

Anyway, I looked at the video and saw this....

Horrible hip slide - and I never would have known it if not for the video. Needless to say, I didn't get into very good impact position. Not sure what's worse, slipping back into bad habits so easily or being able to hit great shots when doing it.

[billchao]

1 hour ago, JonMA1 said:

This is the kind of thing that makes me insane. Been working on eliminating the hip slide and felt there had been some progress even when hitting out into the field. 

For the last several days - including the video from my last post - I've been experiencing lower ball flight and consistent hooks. Today I went out and got almost nothing in the way of decent contact. A lot of shanks and skulled shots. So I thought I'd take video to see what was going on.

I set up the camera and started hitting beautiful shots, high, long and straight. (Go figure.)

Anyway, I looked at the video and saw this....

Horrible hip slide - and I never would have known it if not for the video. Needless to say, I didn't get into very good impact position. Not sure what's worse, slipping back into bad habits so easily or being able to hit great shots when doing it.

Alright @JonMA1, here's the raw deal. Your hip turn, while it has room for improvement, is far from horrible.

It's become clear to me lately that you're not qualified to evaluate your own swing and you're nitpicking at stuff that's not your priority piece and working on it, which is partially why you're not getting better. If that sounds harsh, it's meant to be. I think you need some tough love right now because I feel you need to hear (read) it, because I genuinely want to see you improve and I know how frustrated you've been, but most importantly because I'm speaking from experience and I know exactly where this path will lead you.

My advice is to find a good instructor, or sign up for evolvr, or even just post actual videos of your swing (in slow motion) and practice so people can help you. Or you can just keep doing what you're doing, but you know what they say about dead horses.