My Swing (JonMA1)

[JonMA1]

@billchao - I can't stand passive aggressiveness so when people are direct it's appreciated. Say what you mean and mean what you say. I also believe you genuinely care about helping people improve.

That said, I don't agree with your post.

Spoiler

 

I spent three years working on a single priority using the 5S's of good practice. Three years with no success... talk about beating dead horse. I decided to change it up a bit this year.

When I took Evolvr lessons two years ago, my "priority" went from starting the backswing with more weight back to restricting my hip turn to not being so fidgety. So much for a single priority. Other than the weight back, I didn't understand what was being taught and didn't have a clue as to how to practice it. I was wasting my money and the instructor's time. The same can be said for any other lesson I've taken. Good instruction, shitty student. I'm willing to own that.

As far as video of how I practice, I have some and would be glad to share. There's actually a little bit of that in the link in my signature below and would be glad to share more. But let's face it, other than proving I don't just whack balls all day long - which seems to be what you think - there's little point.

Also, if you think that hip slide isn't extreme, we have little common ground. That's ok. We simply don't agree on what constitutes the "same" swing as in a "players swings are all the same". I've been working hard at eliminating that slide because I think it might be the root cause of not achieving my priority. I just need to continue working at it.

I'm ok with you and a couple others joking about my inside swing vs outside swing. I'd like to think it's friendly banter. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But to me it's a real issue and THE REAL reason I don't improve.

You are correct about me not being not being qualified to evaluate my swing, but at least I take ownership of my progress or lack thereof. Give me just a little credit. I was doing the same thing every year and getting no where... you know, the definition of insanity. I'm just trying to find something that will work where nothing else has.

Anyway, if you guys want me to post less in this thread, just say so. It's helpful to look back at some of my notes but I don't really expect help from others and I try not to ask for it.

 

 

[iacas]

@JonMA1, your hidden stuff is seemingly out of line and not at all what @billchao was saying. Nobody was making fun, least of all Bill.

Bill’s advice comes from a good place and shows that people are still following you and care. Try to see it from his perspective. Or at least give the benefit of doubt. Where are we joking about you? Teasing or making fun? C’mon…

---

The hip slide in that is NOT bad. What hurts you there is the lack of turn.

Yet… I have no idea what you should work on.

Maybe golf is not for you. Maybe, because you're unlike every other golfer I've ever seen, and your swing changes rather dramatically one day or week to another, you're simply uncoachable, by anyone. Yourself included. Maybe you button up one thing and the other twelve (making up numbers here) all fall apart again. So you fix one of those things and the first thing falls apart again. Maybe you lack whatever it is that most people have where things can "stick" and they can honestly work on something enough for it to stick at least temporarily, and take it from the range to the golf course. I've seen some people accomplish real changes in a short period of time that surprises me, so it makes sense, perhaps, that I should see the opposite: a change that never sticks.

I've stopped offering advice to you for the most part, mostly because I've never seen anything really stick. I was interested in your "different way" this past winter and into this summer.

But I don't disagree with Bill, either. Your hip slide isn't anywhere close to "horrible." It's not. You lack a turn there - the torso with the right shoulder still that visible there isn't great. But the hips didn't sway much at all. Surely you can see that. No?

As for what you do from here or where you go… I still got nothin'. It's your game. You have tried several things. I'm not going to tell you what to do, but that's partly based on past experience, and partly because I was interested to see what you'd do with your own made-up plan.

Good luck whatever you do. But please, people here comment because they care, and they don't need scolded for that.

[JonMA1]

@iacas I’m typing from my phone so I apologize in advance for typos, etc.

I think you mistook my tone. I have nothing but respect for Bill. He’s one of the good guys here. My reply had very little emotion attached. @billchao my apologies that it came across as such.

I agree with most of what you said other than the part about the game not being for me. Otherwise I would have a quit long ago. 

I am uncoachable and my swing does change. I respectfully disagree with your opinion on the hip slide but that’s neither here nor there. I agree with the lack of shoulder turn and will continue to work on improving that.

FWIW, your teaching methodology is the best I’ve seen and why I tried so hard for so long to make it work. I have no desire to be different - you’ll have to trust me on that.

[iacas]

11 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I respectfully disagree with your opinion on the hip slide but that’s neither here nor there. I agree with the lack of shoulder turn and will continue to work on improving that.

No, you're wrong there. It's not your hip slide or sway that's the "problem." Is it perfect? No. But it's nowhere near "horrible."

What is pretty bad? Where your head or "URC" goes:

Look at the dot and see how much your head moves relative to it. Your hips have to sway back a bit to offset the head and torso moving where they move.

That's from this:

14 hours ago, JonMA1 said:

Horrible hip slide - and I never would have known it if not for the video. Needless to say, I didn't get into very good impact position. Not sure what's worse, slipping back into bad habits so easily or being able to hit great shots when doing it.

Moving on…

12 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

FWIW, your teaching methodology is the best I’ve seen and why I tried so hard for so long to make it work. I have no desire to be different - you’ll have to trust me on that.

You don't have to say that. It is what it is, and people here still comment because they care, but also some people will comment less partly because you kind of asked them to, so you could do your own thing.

But Bill replied to your "horrible" comment and I'll back him up on that since you disagreed.

It's not horrible, and it's about your head way, WAY more than your hips.

[JonMA1]

9 minutes ago, iacas said:

You don't have to say that. It is what it is, and people here still comment because they care, but also some people will comment less partly because you kind of asked them to, so you could do your own thing.

I say that because it’s important (to me) that you and others understand where I’m coming from. To be honest, I feel guilty as hell that people offer help when I have so much difficulty applying their advice.

Look, I don’t know jack$hit about the swing. There’s a very good chance this season will end the same as every other. I will have at least tried to change the picture.

[billchao]

No worries, @JonMA1. We're good as far as I'm concerned.

I just saw something and offered some advice I felt could help. It won't offend me if you don't take it. It's your game and if part of your enjoyment of it is trying to work it out yourself, I understand that completely.

I'm not asking you to post less here. What I will do is offer my input less, out of respect, because as @iacas said, you kind of asked us to.

[Lihu]

27 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

I say that because it’s important (to me) that you and others understand where I’m coming from. To be honest, I feel guilty as hell that people offer help when I have so much difficulty applying their advice.

Look, I don’t know jack$hit about the swing. There’s a very good chance this season will end the same as every other. I will have at least tried to change the picture.

All of us non-pros are in the same boat as you. We don’t know anything about the Swing either.

However, I will note that for years people (including pros) have been telling you what’s wrong. This certainly can become a thread of frustration if you keep saying you can’t make the fix people have been trying to help you with for so long.

I don’t really know how to fix your issues, but I know when things don’t happen right. I’d maybe focus on some recommended drills or such rather than just hitting balls into a net the same way all the time?

[Marty2019]

On 1/1/2018 at 2:15 PM, JonMA1 said:

It's been a long time since i've posted any video. I'll try to be careful not to delete this one from my YouTube channel.

There are a lot of things wrong with my swing that I've yet to address.  Too much movement at address, too much head movement, opening my hips too early...etc. But I think the most damaging might be coming out of posture as I always seem to do, causing a fail of key#1. No one in the PGA gets taller as they start the downswing. There are just too many things to worry about right now. I have to limit what I'm focusing on. 

These two views are not from the same swing, but are from the same practice session. There are a few things I've been working on that I'm happy with - even if I can't repeat them. Weight shift, swing path, club face control.

 

I know I'm taking some risk by chipping in here, especially since I'm just a fellow hacker and not a scratch golfer or a teaching pro. 

What's up with the baseball grip?   I don't know how people can swing a club with their hands that far apart.

Secondly, your right foot is turned out and your left foot is parallel.  I would do the opposite.  Turn your right foot to the left, and your left foot out.   Less back swing and easier follow through.  

Also, are you rolling onto the outside of your right foot on the back swing?  That's a common mistake I make, too.  They say you're supposed to keep your weight on the inside of the right foot. 

Thirdly, there's a lot of upper body and head movement at the top of the back swing.  When you come to the top of the back swing, can you just stop moving?   There's a lot of head movement. 

Fourthly, maybe from reading a few of the posts in this thread, it seems like you're trying too hard, and working on too many things at once. 

Really, from looking at this swing, it doesn't look that bad.  You have a lot of good things in there.

 

Edited February 26, 2018 by Marty2019

[JonMA1]

Thanks @billchao, @Lihu, and @Marty2019. I really do appreciate the advice and I’m not as frustrated as it probably seems. It’s golf, right?

[Lihu]

8 minutes ago, JonMA1 said:

Thanks @billchao, @Lihu, and @Marty2019. I really do appreciate the advice and I’m not as frustrated as it probably seems. It’s golf, right?

Even @Jack Watson is frustrated.

Seriously, it would be a great moral boost for many of us to see you make those changes to your swing.

[JonMA1]

6 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Even @Jack Watson is frustrated.

Seriously, it would be a great moral boost for many of us to see you make those changes to your swing.

Ha ha. The reason for my initial post yesterday was the quality of the shots when compared to the myriad of swing faults. I might start a topic under Golf Talk or because I think it would make for a decent discussion. Not my swing, just how bad swings can produce good results. What do you think?

Edited February 26, 2018 by JonMA1

[Lihu]

1 minute ago, JonMA1 said:

Ha ha. The reason for my initial post yesterday was the quality of the shots when compared to the myriad of swing faults. I might start a topic under Golf Talk or because I think it would make for a decent discussion. Not my swing, just how bad swings can produce good results. What do you think?

IDK, I’ve seen enough good swings produce bad shots to try to avoid topics like that.

 

[Bennett Stone]

On 2/16/2018 at 1:12 PM, JonMA1 said:

I know... I was drooling over the prospect of getting one when you guys all started posting your numbers. OTOH, I need - or would like - to know the lateral ball flight which brings another $1400 into play. Over the last couple of years I've been looking at all the simulator and flight monitor options. In the end, it just comes down to being fiscally responsible. While a Mevo or any other device would help make winters less boring, I seriously doubt it would make much of a difference in game improvement until I can learn to take my off-the-mat, indoor swing out to the course.

Thanks for the advice @Bennett Stone. I assume you meant "hip" turn? 

What you're saying seems to be what I'm experiencing during indoor practices. I'm not sure why that is, other than a better shoulder turn sometimes keeps me from rushing the downswing which, in turn, allows a better weight shift. That weight shift seems to help in at least two other areas - better inline impact (shaft lean) and a more in-to-out club path.

That said, I wasn't getting as much shoulder turn hitting outside yesterday - less than 90° - and my ball flight was more of a fade. Along with other issues, I can't seem to get a good shoulder turn in my swing. But I agree, it's an important piece to work on and one of the things I look at when evaluating my swing.

If uur hitting a fade and you dont want to try waggle the club in your pre shot reutine and Yes that preatty much what I said also try to make your waggle go on the inside and in a straight line

[JonMA1]

Ancillary BS

Spoiler

 

I finally took video from the course last week and the same issue was apparent. Whatever changes are developed while practicing - whether those changes are good or poor - they do not carry over to the course. I thought about posting the video but it's really embarrassing. I ended up with all my weight on my back foot at impact with my front foot sliding back on the followthrough. FWIW, the resulting shot was a green in regulation.

I've always taken the advice of separating practice from playing, but after so many years I'm starting to question my understanding of this. I have to think on it, but perhaps playing several months of 100% practice rounds on the course is the right plan. I have to dismiss the idea that the changes will start to creep in to my course swing by themselves.   

---

Anyway, the "study" I did this winter only showed me that I can make good shots with a poor swing. I've documented this on video and tracked the results. Since I still believe that a poorer swing will lead to more inconsistency, the dilemma becomes which to work on... getting as good as I can with a crappy swing or continue to develop a better swing. The real challenge would be how to transfer either to the course.

 

That said, the following video is an attempt at the latter option. I'm focusing more on the areas that others have suggested recently - steadier head and better turn (thanks @billchao, @iacas, @Lihu, @Marty2019 and @Bennett Stone). 

The swing thoughts are:

1) "pull" more with my trail shoulder going back instead of pushing with my lead. While I can get considerably more turn than shown in the video below (which I think is 90°), the challenge is not worrying about contact and concentrating more on making that full turn THEN starting my downswing from back/up there. I find the rest of my body does an ok job when I do this. It's just a matter of fighting the bad habits.

2) There is still some head movement here, but after the initial twitchiness on the takeaway, I think I've reduced much of the lateral movement. I've only been working on this for a few days.

The thought is to keep my head steady on the BS then allow only vertical (down) movement if any. Concentrating on looking at the ball longer seems to help reduce that forward movement through impact.

As far as weight forward, I believe I was approaching this incorrectly for a long time... for years. I got so caught up in trying to getting 90% of my weight forward at impact that everything else suffered.

I don't know much about this game so it's all trial and error. The main point is that until I learn to carry this stuff over to the course, it's all about improving a practice swing. That's not really golf.

[Marty2019]

On 3/11/2018 at 9:37 AM, JonMA1 said:

Ancillary BS

  Reveal hidden contents

 

I finally took video from the course last week and the same issue was apparent. Whatever changes are developed while practicing - whether those changes are good or poor - they do not carry over to the course. I thought about posting the video but it's really embarrassing. I ended up with all my weight on my back foot at impact with my front foot sliding back on the followthrough. FWIW, the resulting shot was a green in regulation.

I've always taken the advice of separating practice from playing, but after so many years I'm starting to question my understanding of this. I have to think on it, but perhaps playing several months of 100% practice rounds on the course is the right plan. I have to dismiss the idea that the changes will start to creep in to my course swing by themselves.   

---

Anyway, the "study" I did this winter only showed me that I can make good shots with a poor swing. I've documented this on video and tracked the results. Since I still believe that a poorer swing will lead to more inconsistency, the dilemma becomes which to work on... getting as good as I can with a crappy swing or continue to develop a better swing. The real challenge would be how to transfer either to the course.

 

That said, the following video is an attempt at the latter option. I'm focusing more on the areas that others have suggested recently - steadier head and better turn (thanks @billchao, @iacas, @Lihu, @Marty2019 and @Bennett Stone). 

The swing thoughts are:

1) "pull" more with my trail shoulder going back instead of pushing with my lead. While I can get considerably more turn than shown in the video below (which I think is 90°), the challenge is not worrying about contact and concentrating more on making that full turn THEN starting my downswing from back/up there. I find the rest of my body does an ok job when I do this. It's just a matter of fighting the bad habits.

2) There is still some head movement here, but after the initial twitchiness on the takeaway, I think I've reduced much of the lateral movement. I've only been working on this for a few days.

The thought is to keep my head steady on the BS then allow only vertical (down) movement if any. Concentrating on looking at the ball longer seems to help reduce that forward movement through impact.

As far as weight forward, I believe I was approaching this incorrectly for a long time... for years. I got so caught up in trying to getting 90% of my weight forward at impact that everything else suffered.

I don't know much about this game so it's all trial and error. The main point is that until I learn to carry this stuff over to the course, it's all about improving a practice swing. That's not really golf.

Just looking at that picture, I would say you need to start with one important thing, and that is, turn both feet to the left.  Your right foot is pointed too far back.  Turn it more square.   Your left foot is also turned too far to the right.   Turn it more toward the target. 

Do like Ben Hogan- right foot square, left foot turned out 22 degrees. 

Making this change will shorten your back swing and improve your consistency.  You don't need a big back swing.  Just look at Jon Rahm. 

Do it!  

You have a lot of good elements to build on there.  Your swing is a lot better than some of the guys I play with.  

 

 

 

 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Marty2019

[Lihu]

Agree with Marty. I’d also add that the Swing is not really a pulling feeling. It’s more of a throwing action. Your previous thoughts were more correct?

You look really tense too!

If you can think of it as a throwing action with your hands past your rear thigh or something that might help you from looking and possibly feeling really tense?

Not relaxed, but like your body and arms are really loose at the lead arm shoulders and throwing with your trail arm at the right time to max your speed? 

As if you are throwing a 50 pound bag of cement or something?

[Marty2019]

Also, about taking your practice to the course, the easiest and best way to do that is to take one and only one thing to the course.  In your case, I'd say it is the foot position.  You can set your feet correctly, right foot square, left foot turned 22 degrees out, before you take the club back.  Practice with your feet in the corrected alignment, then when you go to the course, just put your feet in the correct alignment. 

You have a lot of good elements, but you absolutely must correct those feet. 

Fundamentals are called fundamentals for a reason, and foot position is fundamental. 

Edited March 14, 2018 by Marty2019

[iacas]

7 minutes ago, Lihu said:

Agree with Marty. I’d also add that the Swing is not really a pulling feeling. It’s more of a throwing action. Your previous thoughts were more correct?

I don't agree either. His back foot doesn't need to be anywhere near square. He might be able to turn it in a little bit, but I wouldn't do it much. Square feet encourage swaying.

Also, @Marty2019 in particular, don't just accept drawings in a book as the truth.

And @Lihu, there are a lot of great players who feel that it's like a "pulling" action. TGM talks about pushing vs. pulling. Hitters vs. Swingers. Whatever the case, "pulling" is a completely legitimate feeling.

---

@JonMA1, I don't think the stuff you hid is the sub-topic, I think it's THE topic. What good is practice at all if it doesn't transfer?

If you really can't make the same swings on the course as you can in your practice setup, then in my experience either:

• You've not really cemented anything, ever. How long do you focus on ingraining any one thing? Do you jump from priority to priority frequently? It's normal, for example, for golfers to be able to do something in practice when they're focusing solely on doing that thing, and slide back quite a ways to their "typical" swing on the golf course when they have to consider other things, but the longer they stay with that priority thing the less the back sliding is, until it's virtually none. That takes time. If you're on to a new thing after two weeks, or even sometimes two months, then you're going to slide right back to it.
• An invalid or incorrect on the course, wherein you can't transfer what you're working on to the course. For example if you're working on pushing your hips forward on the downswing to finish with your weight forward, once you've chosen your club, aim, etc., that has to be the sole swing thought, the sole feeling. Control the process. Make practice swing (i.e. a swing like you make in practice) that just happens to take place on the golf course. Commit to it at all costs - you'll hit some weird shots, but you'll also see glimpses of the good, and EVERY swing should finish on your front foot in that case, or you've not done it properly. (The alternative is, particularly early on in the process, to just play golf and don't worry about your swing "piece", but to begin worrying about it when it is somewhat repeatable at > 50% speed or so in practice.)

I think you are mostly guilty of the former, and as such, you never get to the point where you can take that one piece to the course. I only skim your posts because I've gotten the sense that you get agitated sometimes when people try to help (which is really a frustration with yourself), but from a 2000 foot away view it looks like you do change things up pretty frequently.

Yes, you might have 11 things wrong, or 7, or 17, or 5 things wrong with your golf swing. But your process should likely be the same as everyone else's - work on your one priority piece until it's "locked in." Until you do it without really thinking about it. Until you reach unconscious competence.

(You take it to the course with a swing thought, rehearsals, etc. between steps 3 and 4.)