• Announcements

    • iacas

      GAME GOLF Ryder Cup Contest   09/22/2016

      Join our GAME GOLF Ryder Cup Challenge to win an autographed GAME GOLF, a Pebble Steel watch, and many more great prizes!
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0
krupa

Couple new golfer questions about immovable obstructions and abnormal ground conditions

12 posts in this topic

1) Many of the cart paths at my local course are hard-packed dirt paths with some gravel/stones.  Is this considered an immovable obstruction or should I play the ball as it lies?

2) I assume that a rain puddle in a depression on one of these paths would be considered abnormal ground conditions.  Is that correct?


Thanks

-matthew

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Want to get rid of this advertisement? Sign up (or log in) today! It's free!

Originally Posted by krupa

1) Many of the cart paths at my local course are hard-packed dirt paths with some gravel/stones.  Is this considered an immovable obstruction or should I play the ball as it lies?

2) I assume that a rain puddle in a depression on one of these paths would be considered abnormal ground conditions.  Is that correct?

Thanks

-matthew

It can be a hard to say.  Properly speaking, the rules say that it must be "artificially surfaced" to qualify as an immovable obstruction.

Obstructions

An “obstruction’’ is anything artificial, including the artificial surfaces and sides of roads and paths and manufactured ice, except:

a. Objects defining out of bounds, such as walls, fences, stakes and railings;

b. Any part of an immovable artificial object that is out of bounds; and

c. Any construction declared by the Committee to be an integral part of the course.

An obstruction is a movable obstruction if it may be moved without unreasonable effort, without unduly delaying play and without causing damage. Otherwise, it is an immovable obstruction.

Note: The Committee may make a Local Rule declaring a movable obstruction to be an immovable obstruction.

I believe that unsurfaced roads as you describe could be designated as ground under repair, but that is up to the competition or course committee.  My home course has a couple of unsurfaced tracks which are used by the maintenance crews, and the men's club tournament committee has declared them as an integral part of the course, meaning that no relief is allowed.  I've played a lot of shots from them over the years with no problems.

For part 2 yes, that would be casual water.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by krupa

1) Many of the cart paths at my local course are hard-packed dirt paths with some gravel/stones.  Is this considered an immovable obstruction or should I play the ball as it lies?

2) I assume that a rain puddle in a depression on one of these paths would be considered abnormal ground conditions.  Is that correct?

Thanks

-matthew

1.  It depends.  If it's simply hard-packed dirt that happens to have some stones/gravel laying around on it, then no.  Those stones are considered loose impediments however and may be removed.  If the gravel was intentionally placed there specifically as surface material for the path, then it is considered an obstruction and you're entitled to relief.  Decision 24/9 applies.

24/9

Artificially-Surfaced Road or Path

Q. An artificially-surfaced road or path is an obstruction. What constitutes artificial surfacing?

A. A road or path to which any foreign material, e.g., concrete, tar, gravel, wood chips, etc. has been applied is artificially surfaced and thus an obstruction.

2.  Correct.

Edited to add that Fourputt beat me to it and added an important note.... that even if it's not specifically artificially surfaced, I've also seen instances where local rule designates it as ground under repair and allows for relief but is under no obligation to do so.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Thanks for the replies.  I'll ask about the cart paths next time I play.

Usually I don't keep score but last night decided to see how high I could go and on one hole went from the cart path on one side of the green to a puddle in another cart path on the other side of the green.  I dropped in both instances but wasn't sure how to score them.

-matt

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by krupa

Thanks for the replies.  I'll ask about the cart paths next time I play.

Usually I don't keep score but last night decided to see how high I could go and on one hole went from the cart path on one side of the green to a puddle in another cart path on the other side of the green.  I dropped in both instances but wasn't sure how to score them.

-matt

It's worth the reminder too.......just because you may be allowed relief, doesn't mean you have to take that relief.  Sometimes the option for relief could put you in a worse predicament than that which you're trying to escape.  Relief doesn't always mean better!

1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Quote:
Originally Posted by David in FL View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by krupa View Post

Thanks for the replies.  I'll ask about the cart paths next time I play.

Usually I don't keep score but last night decided to see how high I could go and on one hole went from the cart path on one side of the green to a puddle in another cart path on the other side of the green.  I dropped in both instances but wasn't sure how to score them.

-matt

It's worth the reminder too.......just because you may be allowed relief, doesn't mean you have to take that relief.  Sometimes the option for relief could put you in a worse predicament than that which you're trying to escape.  Relief doesn't always mean better!

This is fact.  There is usually only one place which qualifies as the "nearest point of relief" under Rules 24 and 25.  Here are a couple of decisions with diagrams illustrating how one finds the relief point.  It takes some studying, but they do show it fairly well.  I could do it more clearly if I could take you outside and just set up a few simple problems and it would be clear in a few minutes, but you'd have to meet me when I'm in Colorado in 3 weeks.

Quote:

25-1b/2

Diagrams Illustrating Nearest Point of Relief

The diagrams illustrate the term "nearest point of relief" in Rule 25-1b(i) in the case of both a right-handed and left-handed player.

The "nearest point of relief" must be strictly interpreted. A player is not permitted to choose on which side of the ground under repair he will drop the ball, unless there are two equidistant "nearest points of relief." Even if one side of the ground under repair is fairway and the other is bushes, if the "nearest point of relief" is in the bushes then the player, if taking relief, must drop the ball within one club-length of that point, even though he may have to drop the ball in a virtually unplayable lie.

The same procedure applies under Rule 24-2b dealing with immovable obstructions.

24-2b/3.7

Diagram Illustrating Player Unable to Determine Nearest Point of Relief

The diagram illustrates the point raised in Decision 24-2b/3.5 where a player may be unable to determine the nearest point of relief from an immovable obstruction and will need to estimate this point under Rule 24-2b .

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

So in the last diagram you just find a spot not closer to the hole where you're not standing on stakes or walls or up a tree?

-matthew

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by krupa

So in the last diagram you just find a spot not closer to the hole where you're not standing on stakes or walls or up a tree?

-matthew

No it means that sometimes you can't take your stance because of those items, but that doesn't change the location of the nearest point of relief.  In a case where you can't take a stance because of interference from one of those objects other than the obstruction you are taking relief from, you have to estimate it as best you can.  You don't get better relief just because you would have to stand in a tree to take your stance.  The only thing you are getting relief from is the obstruction.  If something else is in the way, that's just too bad.  I've played shots from a concrete cart path when the dropping point would have put me into virtually unplayable rough or in the middle of a bush.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by krupa

So in the last diagram you just find a spot not closer to the hole where you're not standing on stakes or walls or up a tree?

-matthew

No, it's telling you your NPR may be someplace where you might not like it.  P1 and P2 ARE the NPR's.  If you elect to take relief, you will have the stakes or wall in the way.  That's why fourputt said to make sure you know where your NPR is before you lift your ball.  You may not like it.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by krupa

So in the last diagram you just find a spot not closer to the hole where you're not standing on stakes or walls or up a tree?

-matthew

Keep in mind that in the situation where your drop puts you standing on the fence or wall that there could be a little more to it.  Check out this very relevant thread I started several weeks ago: vhttp://thesandtrap.com/t/68147/relief-near-boundary-fence/0_30

AFTER dropping (assuming you chose to do so) if you decided that your only option was to play left handed (or backwards) and that option put your feet on the cart path .. well, now you get to take relief from that situation.  If you're interested or confused, read that thread. ;)

Originally Posted by Fourputt

No it means that sometimes you can't take your stance because of those items, but that doesn't change the location of the nearest point of relief.  In a case where you can't take a stance because of interference from one of those objects other than the obstruction you are taking relief from, you have to estimate it as best you can.  You don't get better relief just because you would have to stand in a tree to take your stance.  The only thing you are getting relief from is the obstruction.  If something else is in the way, that's just too bad.  I've played shots from a concrete cart path when the dropping point would have put me into virtually unplayable rough or in the middle of a bush.

OK, so in the "tree" scenario in that last photo, the nearest point of relief is, quite literally, inaccessible, right?  Unless, I guess, you were to climb to the top of the tree.  SO, in that situation, is there a provision where you drop as near as possible to said point (not sure why you'd want to since you're probably dropping right at the base of a tree trunk) or are you just out of luck and have to play from the path?

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Golfingdad

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

No it means that sometimes you can't take your stance because of those items, but that doesn't change the location of the nearest point of relief.  In a case where you can't take a stance because of interference from one of those objects other than the obstruction you are taking relief from, you have to estimate it as best you can.  You don't get better relief just because you would have to stand in a tree to take your stance.  The only thing you are getting relief from is the obstruction.  If something else is in the way, that's just too bad.  I've played shots from a concrete cart path when the dropping point would have put me into virtually unplayable rough or in the middle of a bush.

OK, so in the "tree" scenario in that last photo, the nearest point of relief is, quite literally, inaccessible, right?  Unless, I guess, you were to climb to the top of the tree.  SO, in that situation, is there a provision where you drop as near as possible to said point (not sure why you'd want to since you're probably dropping right at the base of a tree trunk) or are you just out of luck and have to play from the path?

Remember that you still get one clublength from the NPR, so unless the tree is nearly 6 feet in diameter, you will still probably find some ground to drop on.  But that still doesn't mean that the relief will be in a playable location.  That is why I said that I have taken shots from cart paths when the relief was worse than the current lie.

You also still have the less desirable option of declaring the ball unplayable and proceeding under Rule 28.  With 2 clublengths from where the ball lies, you might got off the cart path and on the side of the path clear of other trouble, although it will cost you a stroke for that privilege.  If it's me, I can usually do better just taking the shot as it lies, even if it's just punching back into play.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Originally Posted by Fourputt

Remember that you still get one clublength from the NPR, so unless the tree is nearly 6 feet in diameter, you will still probably find some ground to drop on.  But that still doesn't mean that the relief will be in a playable location.  That is why I said that I have taken shots from cart paths when the relief was worse than the current lie.

Whoops.  Oh yeah, duh. ;)

Originally Posted by Fourputt

If it's me, I can usually do better just taking the shot as it lies, even if it's just punching back into play.

Yeah, more often than not, I would imagine that playing it off the cart path (especially with spikeless shoes now - old school metal spikes are a totally different story ;)) would frequently be the best option in these scenarios.

0

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Awards, Achievements, and Accolades

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 0



  • Want to join this community?

    We'd love to have you!

    Sign Up
  • 2016 TST Partners

    GAME Golf
    PING Golf
    Lowest Score Wins
  • Posts

    • Copy & Pasting my own answer on a similar thread here.... I agree about borrowing or grabbing a CHEAP bag of random clubs at a garage sale to start with but when you're ready to invest a little dough into your own set, there are really three ways to do it... 1 - Get a cheap beginner set from Golfsmith or Dick's (or other online source). Advantages (if you go instore) are you get to see/swing them first, some assistance with selection, a good matched set to start learning the game with even if they are not fitted. I recently spent $169 on a set of Lynx Tigress clubs from Golfsmith for my wife...same set is currently listed on their site for $299. They are actually quite well made/designed and will likely be all she ever needs for her game. Dick's also had a Top Flite set in the same price range...she liked the color of the Lynx set better. ;) 2 - Roll the dice with an online "Clone" company like Giga, Diamond Tour, Pine Meadow, Hireko Golf, etc...You don't get to swing them first but you can use their online fitting systems to customize size/shaft/grip options a little more than just the standard options in a box. I used to have a Pine Meadow driver that I could hit ever bit as far as my brother-in-laws latest greatest. This is a good article about clone clubs http://planet-golf.com/what-are-clone-golf-clubs/ 3 - Used brand name stuff, one man's trash is literally my treasure. Try EBay, Club Finders (or other like websites) and buy a used set of matched irons of proper size/flex (used Ping Eye 2 iron sets go for $90-125 all day) and then piece together your other clubs individually. Again, you won't get to swing them first and you could get burned on a deal along the way...but if you take your time and shop smart, you can assemble a nice bag without breaking the bank this way too. I'm lucky here in Dallas to have a PGA store, a Golfsmith, a dozen Dick's Sports, and also Club Finders Golf (used golf specialist) all within 20 minutes of my house so when I started building a new bag I decided to take the #3 route...but I am considering finishing it off with a couple of new clone wedges rather than going with older/used wedges. Good luck whatever you decide.
    • I agree about borrowing or grabbing a CHEAP bag of random clubs at a garage sale to start with but when you're ready to invest a little dough into your own set, there are really three ways to do it... 1 - Get a cheap beginner set from Golfsmith or Dick's (or other online source). Advantages are you get to see/swing them first, some assistance with selection, a good matched set to start learning the game with even if they are not fitted. I recently spent $169 on a set of Lynx Tigress clubs from Golfsmith for my wife...same set is currently listed on their site for $299. They are actually quite well made/designed and will likely be all she ever needs for her game. Dick's also had a Top Flite set in the same price range...she liked the color of the Lynx set better. ;) 2 - Roll the dice with an online "Clone" company like Giga, Diamond Tour, Pine Meadow, Hireko Golf, etc...You don't get to swing them first but you can use their online fitting systems to customize size/shaft/grip options a little more than just the standard options in a box. I used to have a Pine Meadow driver that I could hit ever bit as far as my brother-in-laws latest greatest. This is a good article about clone clubs http://planet-golf.com/what-are-clone-golf-clubs/ 3 - Used brand name stuff, one man's trash is literally my treasure. Try EBay, Club Finders (or other like websites) and buy a used set of matched irons of proper size/flex (used Ping Eye 2 iron sets go for $90-125 all day) and then piece together your other clubs individually. Again, you won't get to swing them first and you could get burned on a deal along the way...but if you take your time and shop smart, you can assemble a nice bag without breaking the bank this way too. I'm lucky here in Dallas to have a PGA store, a Golfsmith, a dozen Dick's Sports, and also Club Finders Golf (used golf specialist) all within 20 minutes of my house so when I started building a new bag I decided to take the #3 route...but I am considering finishing it off with a couple of new clone wedges rather than going with older/used wedges. Good luck whatever you decide.
    • Great time! Laughs, good conversation and three new good people that I met. Hacker James is a fun character and his daughter is also. She has good setup form and with more playing and practice she can really improve. She hit a few good long drives, out driving her father from the same tees. Hacker James was lagging very well, but nothing fell for him, but he took it like the golfer that he is. Shindig is a great guy and fun to play with and talk with. His golf game is impressive. Long drives, good short game and putter. He's pretty consistent. Consistently out drove me. Shindig was using Game Golf, I'm looking forward to seeing the results. It didn't seem to bother his game.   I got up at 3:00 am, left home around 4, got to the course about 6:30 from Palm Desert. I liked the course. it has a great practice area, broken up into the driving range and different short game areas. The layout of the course was good as well as the fairways and greens. I didn't like some of the sand bunkers with very little sand, but overall it's a good course to play. The employees were friendly as well.   I shot 97, 48 on the front, 49 on the back. I putted so badly.  I missed so many putts within 5 feet. I drove the ball well, not too many out of the fairway, and they were still playable. I got in the sand and out pretty good most of the time, but I missed one short putt after another, it was killing me or better yet I was killing myself. My lagging was hit and miss as well. When I got home I took five putters to the putting green and selected another putter for my next round.  I did hit one of those shots that make you say " Oh yea". It was a 5-wood from the fairway, oh so sweet.  Looking forward to the next outing and meeting other Sand Trap members.    
    • I've always been at best average at speed events like sprinting.  But when I hit the driver well it goes 250 to 260 yards.  I gained maybe 30 to 40 yards this year and I'll turn 59 this December.  I'm 5'11", 150 lbs.  I've had leukemia, high dosage chemo and a bone marrow transplant, 5 years ago.  I'm definately not an example of great health. Most 42 year old men should be able to hit it further than 180 yards. Yes, technic and just as important... swing fast.  You should post a swing video in the member swing section of this forum to get tips from some experts around here.
    • Being in Scotland it's the opposite to your situation as in flooded greens.  I've went into pro shop and been given a free second game voucher / ticket a few times over the years.  I don't see it as an issue and as long as your respectful to the staff it's never been an issue with no hard feelings from either party. 
  • TST Blog Entries

  • Images

  • Today's Birthdays

    1. Dresilved
      Dresilved
      (51 years old)
    2. kpetrina
      kpetrina
      (24 years old)
    3. Luana
      Luana
      (38 years old)
  • Blog Entries