Finchem says PGA Tour is "studying" Call-in Rules Violations

[Golfingdad]

Fair treatment in the rules of any game means that all players are subject to the same rules.    Unfair is the opposite ... unfair is not "Boo, hoo, my ball ended up in a divot hole." or "Boo, hoo, my ball moved and I didn't see it, but someone else did."

I still don't think it's quite that simple. It's a self policing game. If, instead if a video camera, his playing partners caddy saw it move, do we take his word over tigers word? So it's not just a matter of "somebody else saw it" but rather a matter of "it was picked up on hd video." (Not saying you're wrong, but I just don't believe it's quite that basic.)

[Mulligan Jeff]

One of the best run sports organizations in the country is the NFL - do you think there are questionable calls made by referees? Do you think there are rules violations made by opposing teams on the field and on the sidelines? The answer of course is yes. But do we see viewers and spectators calling in rules violations? Absolutely NOT! The league would never stoop that low to let an amateur police its rules, policies and procedures. I say cheers to the NFL! I only hope the PGA follows suit.

[Fourputt]

One of the best run sports organizations in the country is the NFL - do you think there are questionable calls made by referees? Do you think there are rules violations made by opposing teams on the field and on the sidelines? The answer of course is yes. But do we see viewers and spectators calling in rules violations? Absolutely NOT! The league would never stoop that low to let an amateur police its rules, policies and procedures. I say cheers to the NFL! I only hope the PGA follows suit.

The obvious difference (besides the fact that it's football, not golf; and its a team sport, not individual;) is that football is supposed to be managed by an officiating crew, not by the players.  The viewers of football games don't play a game which is played by the same rules as the game played by the pros.

These comparisons just don't hold water.  You can't compare golf with just about any other game on the planet.

[Golfingdad]

One of the best run sports organizations in the country is the NFL - do you think there are questionable calls made by referees? Do you think there are rules violations made by opposing teams on the field and on the sidelines? The answer of course is yes. But do we see viewers and spectators calling in rules violations? Absolutely NOT! The league would never stoop that low to let an amateur police its rules, policies and procedures. I say cheers to the NFL! I only hope the PGA follows suit.

The obvious difference (besides the fact that it's football, not golf; and its a team sport, not individual;) is that football is supposed to be managed by an officiating crew, not by the players.  The viewers of football games don't play a game which is played by the same rules as the game played by the pros.

These comparisons just don't hold water.  You can't compare golf with just about any other game on the planet.

While I agree with you that Jeff's argument is a bit weak.  (The ability of the NFL, and even moreso, the MLB, to stand steadfast with their officials after obvious mistakes, rather than admit them, is, IMO, a fault, not a virtue.)

However, I don't understand your counter-argument.  Quite a lot of people who watch football have played football, and while there are minor rules differences between the NFL and the highest level that most of us acheived, they certainly aren't enough to keep us form being able to understand the game.

I don't think you can just say "golf is different, therefore you can't compare it to anything else."  That, I believe, is a cop out.

[Mulligan Jeff]

The obvious difference (besides the fact that it's football, not golf; and its a team sport, not individual;) is that football is supposed to be managed by an officiating crew, not by the players.  The viewers of football games don't play a game which is played by the same rules as the game played by the pros.

These comparisons just don't hold water.  You can't compare golf with just about any other game on the planet.

So you're saying that PGA Rules Officials are not an officiating crew and the players themselves manage the rules. Hmmm that doesn't hold much water with me.

[Fourputt]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mulligan Jeff

One of the best run sports organizations in the country is the NFL - do you think there are questionable calls made by referees? Do you think there are rules violations made by opposing teams on the field and on the sidelines? The answer of course is yes. But do we see viewers and spectators calling in rules violations? Absolutely NOT! The league would never stoop that low to let an amateur police its rules, policies and procedures. I say cheers to the NFL! I only hope the PGA follows suit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The obvious difference (besides the fact that it's football, not golf; and its a team sport, not individual;) is that football is supposed to be managed by an officiating crew, not by the players.  The viewers of football games don't play a game which is played by the same rules as the game played by the pros.

These comparisons just don't hold water.  You can't compare golf with just about any other game on the planet.

While I agree with you that Jeff's argument is a bit weak.  (The ability of the NFL, and even moreso, the MLB, to stand steadfast with their officials after obvious mistakes, rather than admit them, is, IMO, a fault, not a virtue.)

However, I don't understand your counter-argument.  Quite a lot of people who watch football have played football, and while there are minor rules differences between the NFL and the highest level that most of us acheived, they certainly aren't enough to keep us form being able to understand the game.

I don't think you can just say "golf is different, therefore you can't compare it to anything else."  That, I believe, is a cop out.

Really?  You think that even a tiny percentage of football fans have ever actually played the game aside from a bunch of kids getting together for a pickup game of touch?  I never played a single down of organized football, and I can't name a friend who has, certainly not since high school, but I sure know a lot of football fans (I have both relatives and friends who are female, never played football of any kind, but they are rabid fans).  On the other hand, I don't know a single person who watches golf but doesn't play the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fourputt

The obvious difference (besides the fact that it's football, not golf; and its a team sport, not individual;) is that football is supposed to be managed by an officiating crew, not by the players.  The viewers of football games don't play a game which is played by the same rules as the game played by the pros.

These comparisons just don't hold water.  You can't compare golf with just about any other game on the planet.

So you're saying that PGA Rules Officials are not an officiating crew and the players themselves manage the rules. Hmmm that doesn't hold much water with me.

Not in the sense of a football referee crew.  The RO at a golf tournament is intended to be a resource for the player to use as needed - that is his primary function.  His job is not to watch every play and look for players committing and trying to get away with a rules breach like they are in most team sports.  Golfers are held to a higher standard than that.  The RO is supposed to step in IF he sees a breach, or sees a player about to commit a breach, but that is not his primary duty.

If it becomes necessary to change this, then we will have lost a big piece of what has always been great about golf.

[newtogolf]

The obvious difference (besides the fact that it's football, not golf; and its a team sport, not individual;) is that football is supposed to be managed by an officiating crew, not by the players.  The viewers of football games don't play a game which is played by the same rules as the game played by the pros.

These comparisons just don't hold water.  You can't compare golf with just about any other game on the planet.

It's unique in that we're supposed to self police and enforce the rules on ourselves but beyond that your argument doesn't hold up.  I played H.S. and college football, I know the rules and can identify offsides, offensive holding, pass interference and illegal blocks.  If you played the game, you have to know the rules.

Other sports, with the exception of golf admit that calls are missed, made incorrectly or the rules are not interpreted properly so they have instant replay that is used equitably for both teams to ensure the right calls are made.

Golf is admitting that not all players understand the rules or play by the rules so they allow outside influences whether it be viewers at home, fans in the gallery or independent camera crews to point out a golfers failure to follow the rules.  It seems the PGA Tour needs to step up and place officials on every hole or camera crews on every hole to ensure all golfers follow the rules, not just the most popular or winning ones.

Tiger has had three incidents this season where he either cheated, used poor judgment or didn't know the rules which brought into question his integrity, how many other golfers out there are guilty of the same that we don't know about?  I don't believe Tiger is the only one.

[Golfingdad]

Really?  You think that even a tiny percentage of football fans have ever actually played the game aside from a bunch of kids getting together for a pickup game of touch?  I never played a single down of organized football, and I can't name a friend who has, certainly not since high school, but I sure know a lot of football fans (I have both relatives and friends who are female, never played football of any kind, but they are rabid fans).  On the other hand, I don't know a single person who watches golf but doesn't play the game.

OK, maybe I am guilty of having a biased set of acquiantances (in the sense that I played football, and have lots of friends and relatives that played football) so I probably have a skewed idea of how many people actually have played organized football.  However, I still don't understand what this has to do with anything.  So what if we don't play the same game?  You don't have to play it to understand it.

Tiger has had three incidents this season where he either cheated, used poor judgment or didn't know the rules which brought into question his integrity, how many other golfers out there are guilty of the same that we don't know about?  I don't believe Tiger is the only one.

I agree.  In the case of Tiger, I'd say that Abu Dhabi was a case of not knowing the rules and BMW was a case of poor judgment (twice ... he shouldn't have tried to move the stick, then should've asked for a rules official after he saw it oscillate).  But the Masters was just a brain freeze, I believe.  I believe this because 99% of time when you hit a ball into a pond short of a green your option of rehitting and of going back on a line are basically interchangable.  (It's not too common to hit the ball over a pond and have it deflect back in).  So Tiger was just not thinking 100% clearly there.

Golfers are held to a higher standard than that.  The RO is supposed to step in IF he sees a breach, or sees a player about to commit a breach, but that is not his primary duty.

If it becomes necessary to change this, then we will have lost a big piece of what has always been great about golf.

I used a very similar argument way back in the beginning of the thread ... http://thesandtrap.com/t/70042/finchem-says-pga-tour-is-studying-call-in-rules-violations/0_30#post_898546

To me, the argument that some are making - that we need to keep an eye on these guys in case the self-policing "breaks down" - is already conceding some of these integrity and I think that's sad.

[Mulligan Jeff]

Really?  You think that even a tiny percentage of football fans have ever actually played the game aside from a bunch of kids getting together for a pickup game of touch?  I never played a single down of organized football, and I can't name a friend who has, certainly not since high school, but I sure know a lot of football fans (I have both relatives and friends who are female, never played football of any kind, but they are rabid fans).  On the other hand, I don't know a single person who watches golf but doesn't play the game.

Not in the sense of a football referee crew.  The RO at a golf tournament is intended to be a resource for the player to use as needed - that is his primary function.  His job is not to watch every play and look for players committing and trying to get away with a rules breach like they are in most team sports.  Golfers are held to a higher standard than that.  The RO is supposed to step in IF he sees a breach, or sees a player about to commit a breach, but that is not his primary duty.

If it becomes necessary to change this, then we will have lost a big piece of what has always been great about golf.

Sports in essence is not a game of perfect (from an officiating standpoint), I'm satisfied with the wrong call from an official - am I going to bitch and moan from it heck yeah just don't let the amateur sleuth in to police the event.

[iacas]

Team sports that have officials fail as analogous situations because in those sports players are attempting to cheat, or get away with things as much as possible. The sports reward it - if you can consistently hold, for example, but you only get called one out of twenty times, that's probably to your team's net overall benefit.

Seriously, comparing a sport where players will gouge at other people's eyes in pile-ups to golf? C'mon. It doesn't even take a rocket surgeon to know that can't reasonably be compared to golf.

Virtually every other sport: attempting to cheat as much as possible without getting caught too often.

Golf: on your honor with the few officials available as resources, not as referees, umpires, judges, etc.

[mvmac]

It seems the PGA Tour needs to step up and place officials on every hole or camera crews on every hole to ensure all golfers follow the rules, not just the most popular or winning ones.

Tiger has had three incidents this season where he either cheated, used poor judgment or didn't know the rules which brought into question his integrity, how many other golfers out there are guilty of the same that we don't know about?  I don't believe Tiger is the only one.

You make it sound like Tiger is the only one with the attention on him.  Camera crews follow featured groups on Thursday and Friday and obviously cover the leaders on the weekends.  There are also on course reporters, usually former players, that know the rules following players.  This happens every week and we see very, very few rules violations.  There is no reason for the PGA Tour to assign officials to every player or a camera to every player.

Tiger may not have had a great '13 with the rules but I can only think of one other issue in his past 17 years on tour.

[turtleback]

You make it sound like Tiger is the only one with the attention on him.  Camera crews follow featured groups on Thursday and Friday and obviously cover the leaders on the weekends.  There are also on course reporters, usually former players, that know the rules following players.  This happens every week and we see very, very few rules violations.  There is no reason for the PGA Tour to assign officials to every player or a camera to every player.

Tiger may not have had a great '13 with the rules but I can only think of one other issue in his past 17 years on tour.

Tiger is not the only one with attention on him, but the amount of attention he gets is an order of magnitude greater than the amount of attention any other single player gets.

To me, there is no problem and there is no solution.  The status quo is just fine.  I would much rather see the PGATour address themselves to the idiots yelling out than this non-issue.

[Golfingdad]

Team sports that have officials fail as analogous situations because in those sports players are attempting to cheat, or get away with things as much as possible. The sports reward it - if you can consistently hold, for example, but you only get called one out of twenty times, that's probably to your team's net overall benefit.

Seriously, comparing a sport where players will gouge at other people's eyes in pile-ups to golf? C'mon. It doesn't even take a rocket surgeon to know that can't reasonably be compared to golf.

Virtually every other sport: attempting to cheat as much as possible without getting caught too often.

Golf: on your honor with the few officials available as resources, not as referees, umpires, judges, etc.

It also doesn't take a Brain Scientist ;) to know that "compare" does not equal "equate."  What you said is basically an argument (in my view) against the need for video review, or for allowing call-ins from viewers.  We can trust these guys to do their best to play fair, so lets keep the playing field as even as possible.

When they were showing that bit on TGC the other day in association with Tim Finchem's comments, one of the players they were interviewing (I think it was Kuchar, but it could have been Zach Johnson) said something to the effect that any player out there attempting to cheat will be eventually outed and basically ostracized.

[iacas]

To me, there is no problem and there is no solution.  The status quo is just fine.  I would much rather see the PGATour address themselves to the idiots yelling out than this non-issue.

Agree entirely. No problem in need of a solution. Yellers need to be stopped.

[Mulligan Jeff]

I stand corrected that golf is a game of honor while rules officials act as resources - far apart from other team oriented sports.

[bplewis24]

If you were in 70th position an incidentally unnoticed breach would have little or no effect on the outcome of the tournament.  For a player in the top ten on the leaderboard, it very well might have a big impact.  For that reason alone I don't care about the relatively uneven application of video evidence.  Once again, nothing in the rules has ever said that anything about the game is supposed to be fair.

Being in 70th position does not mean they have no effect on the outcome of the tournament.  There will always be guys who start poorly and make moves on day 2 and 3 to put themselves in contention, and vice versa.  It happens every weekend.  I've brought up this example before, but it bears repeating that if a guy is in contention all four days, and has all the cameras and spectator's eyes upon him, whereas somebody else was 5-10 strokes back on day 1, but made a push on day 2 and 3, he could have easily spend two full days with no eyes on him and committed an infraction that went unnoticed.  That has a very real impact on the leaderboard.

And while I don't really care about how the word "fair" is used in this context, yes, the game absolutely should be equitable.  It kind of baffles me if people think otherwise.  There are many situations where this application is inequitable and has real impact on the final results, and simply ignoring the possibility of them doesn't really do this discussion justice.

The obvious difference (besides the fact that it's football, not golf; and its a team sport, not individual;) is that football is supposed to be managed by an officiating crew, not by the players.  The viewers of football games don't play a game which is played by the same rules as the game played by the pros.

These comparisons just don't hold water.  You can't compare golf with just about any other game on the planet.

That is pretty irrelevant.  If it's supposed to be managed by the players then it's just another reason we don't need spectators for additional oversight.

We either want full accountability and enforcement of rules or we don't.  If we don't, and we are okay with things being "unfair" and inequitable, then we can't continue to pretend we want full enforcement of rules.  Because by definition, we then don't.

To me, there is no problem and there is no solution.

I would completely disagree with the latter, if not the entire thing.  There are easily ways to come up with solutions.  The simplest being "don't accept call-ins."  If there is no problem (which I disagree with), then there would be absolutely no detriment to disallowing call-ins to begin with.

[iacas]

That is pretty irrelevant.  If it's supposed to be managed by the players then it's just another reason we don't need spectators for additional oversight.

Sure we do. It's in the Rules of Golf, for one. And second, it gets us closest to the most feasible version of the truth that's possible.

I would completely disagree with the latter, if not the entire thing.  There are easily ways to come up with solutions.  The simplest being "don't accept call-ins."  If there is no problem (which I disagree with), then there would be absolutely no detriment to disallowing call-ins to begin with.

Sure there would - we would not have the most feasible (i.e. possible without going to extreme measures like having 156+ cameras or officials per week) and closest to the truth competitions among the major sports.

Like we have now.

And again, nobody wants to answer this question because they all know the answer: list or name the actual call-in rules infractions in the last decade on the PGA Tour? Camilo Villegas is one. Name some others. This isn't the problem many of you want to think it is.

[mvmac]

And again, nobody wants to answer this question because they all know the answer: list or name the actual call-in rules infractions in the last decade on the PGA Tour? Camilo Villegas is one. Name some others. This isn't the problem many of you want to think it is.

I think it's a conspiracy to sell a lot of GoPro's to the various tours