Pace Problem

[Fourputt]

I'm no longer replying in direct quotes to the self styled "Boss" because he doesn't read what's written anyway.  I state facts and he refutes with opinions, and not only that but opinions which are not supported by any sort of evidence.  If he has truly never played a competition in less than 5¼ hours, then he must live in the only place in the US where that could be possible over the period of time he professes to have done it.  

I know for a fact that it doesn't happen where I play, because our men's club has set it's own pace of play policy, and finishing in more than 4½ hours is universally penalized.  I can assure him that only 2 or 3 groups per year actually have to take such a penalty.  And the course has never in it's history used more than a 9 minute tee time interval.

So the Boss can continue in his fantasy world and blather away, but I've had my say and I'm no longer responding to him unless he shows a willingness to discuss and not just pontificate.

[The Boss]

6 minutes ago, Big C said:

I gotta say that you're a bit off base here, @The Boss. Every course should do their best to strike the delicate balance between revenue generation and a fast pace of play, but 10 minute tee time intervals leans too far to the latter. There are several well-run, highly trafficked courses around here that space groups 8-9 minutes apart. With a good starter and marshals who can act when needed, pace of play doesn't suffer in the least. If the course is properly run otherwise, 10 minute intervals is just insanity from a business standpoint.

Big C,

. Well most golf courses recommend somewhere around a 4 and 1/2 hours pace or there-abouts. I think we can agree on that desired outcome statement. Well I question whether this is just lip service or is what is truly what management of the golf course desire. i am very sincere about this. I approach this topic from the perspective of a golf consumer and not from the perspective of a golf course owner or mangager or Head Pro. When I amd my buddies go out for a casual round of golf at a public or semi-private or daily fee course my friends and I are looking very selfessly in that we wand/expect a pleasant golfing experience. What I expect from the glf course is to provide me with the opportunity to finish a round of golf in a reasonable amout of time. Now I have lower standards then my friends but I will tolerate a 5 hour round of golf.       Now during prime time periods of gold like any weekend during the spring for instance, a golf course "should" monitor pace of play as most of the better courses are filled to the gills with golfers. My experience playing golf here up and down the East Coast for many years has shown me that for the better part of the last 20 years "most" golf course are not policing the pace of play on their course. Is is a rare experience that I see marshalls and other course personnel to the extent they were available say in the 80's and early 90's. Now it may be different where you are but this is my perception whenever I play at a public golf course. I talking golf in Florida, North and South Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island. Whenever a 18 hole golf course is playing at capacity I am of the firmest belief, based on thousand plus rounds of life-time experience that sending golfers out all day long at prime time in less then 10 minute spacing intervals will not allow one to complete a round a golf in under 5 hours unless on-the-course pace of play is strictly enforced by the course marshall. As I stated, my experiences are that golf courses in general are not enforcing pace of play on courses with any level of enforcement. Enforcement has been declining and one can talk about this topic at length also for the reasons why this is but that is a discussion for another day. Now if what I am claming is true, which I sincerely do believe, then the only way a golf course can regulate pace of play is to better control the numbers of golfers it sends out to the course. The course also controls its course policy to regulate walking the course and it also can regulate whether 2-somes are paired up or not with other golfers due especially during periods of heavy use. These are the primary tools a golf course has to regulate pace of play at aheir golf course. Keep in mind, a flow of golfers through the golf course can only move as fast as the slowest golfer on the golf course whenever the golf course is filled. So that means even if I play every hole in say less than 10 minues, then a golfer that is 9 holes in front of me that is playing at a pace 20 minutes a hole will slow every golfer that is behind him/her down to a 20 minute pace. I have been paired with some golfers who actually believe that since they pay the golf course their daily fee that they are entitled to take a much tme as they wish to enjoy their round of golf (which I strongly disagree).. Anyway, I am digressing. To get on point again, unless the golf course has realistic enforcement in whatever manner they chose, then a less than 10 minute staging interval does not work if the golf course is truly sincere about golfers finishing their rounds in typically 4 and 1/2 hours. This is unrealistic for a golf course to believe it is and I, as a golfing consumer, am dissatisfied if a golf course does not enforce in some manner through their policies what it establishes for its operation which will insure I finish my round of golf in 5 hours or less.  I expect nothing less from the golf course and I place 100% of the blame squarely on the golf course if golfers are finishing their rounds of golf in 5 and 1/2 hours or more. Now I know that anybody on this forum who works for or owns a golf course will take the side "We need to get as many golfers on our course playing our course as possible...so what if the golfers get upset". Well, from a consumer standpoint I reject this arguement. I will take my business elsewhere and I have done so from time to time. Anyway, I ranted far to long in this post. I strongly believe in everything I have stated or claimed and I am convinced I am correct in my beliefs.

The Boss

[dak4n6]

19 minutes ago, The Boss said:

Big C,

. Well most golf courses recommend somewhere around a 4 and 1/2 hours pace or there-abouts. I think we can agree on that desired outcome statement. Well I question whether this is just lip service or is what is truly what management of the golf course desire. i am very sincere about this. I approach this topic from the perspective of a golf consumer and not from the perspective of a golf course owner or mangager or Head Pro. When I amd my buddies go out for a casual round of golf at a public or semi-private or daily fee course my friends and I are looking very selfessly in that we wand/expect a pleasant golfing experience. What I expect from the glf course is to provide me with the opportunity to finish a round of golf in a reasonable amout of time. Now I have lower standards then my friends but I will tolerate a 5 hour round of golf.       Now during prime time periods of gold like any weekend during the spring for instance, a golf course "should" monitor pace of play as most of the better courses are filled to the gills with golfers. My experience playing golf here up and down the East Coast for many years has shown me that for the better part of the last 20 years "most" golf course are not policing the pace of play on their course. Is is a rare experience that I see marshalls and other course personnel to the extent they were available say in the 80's and early 90's. Now it may be different where you are but this is my perception whenever I play at a public golf course. I talking golf in Florida, North and South Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island. Whenever a 18 hole golf course is playing at capacity I am of the firmest belief, based on thousand plus rounds of life-time experience that sending golfers out all day long at prime time in less then 10 minute spacing intervals will not allow one to complete a round a golf in under 5 hours unless on-the-course pace of play is strictly enforced by the course marshall. As I stated, my experiences are that golf courses in general are not enforcing pace of play on courses with any level of enforcement. Enforcement has been declining and one can talk about this topic at length also for the reasons why this is but that is a discussion for another day. Now if what I am claming is true, which I sincerely do believe, then the only way a golf course can regulate pace of play is to better control the numbers of golfers it sends out to the course. The course also controls its course policy to regulate walking the course and it also can regulate whether 2-somes are paired up or not with other golfers due especially during periods of heavy use. These are the primary tools a golf course has to regulate pace of play at aheir golf course. Keep in mind, a flow of golfers through the golf course can only move as fast as the slowest golfer on the golf course whenever the golf course is filled. So that means even if I play every hole in say less than 10 minues, then a golfer that is 9 holes in front of me that is playing at a pace 20 minutes a hole will slow every golfer that is behind him/her down to a 20 minute pace. I have been paired with some golfers who actually believe that since they pay the golf course their daily fee that they are entitled to take a much tme as they wish to enjoy their round of golf (which I strongly disagree).. Anyway, I am digressing. To get on point again, unless the golf course has realistic enforcement in whatever manner they chose, then a less than 10 minute staging interval does not work if the golf course is truly sincere about golfers finishing their rounds in typically 4 and 1/2 hours. This is unrealistic for a golf course to believe it is and I, as a golfing consumer, am dissatisfied if a golf course does not enforce in some manner through their policies what it establishes for its operation which will insure I finish my round of golf in 5 hours or less.  I expect nothing less from the golf course and I place 100% of the blame squarely on the golf course if golfers are finishing their rounds of golf in 5 and 1/2 hours or more. Now I know that anybody on this forum who works for or owns a golf course will take the side "We need to get as many golfers on our course playing our course as possible...so what if the golfers get upset". Well, from a consumer standpoint I reject this arguement. I will take my business elsewhere and I have done so from time to time. Anyway, I ranted far to long in this post. I strongly believe in everything I have stated or claimed and I am convinced I am correct in my beliefs.

The Boss

Sorry, didn't even make it 1/2 way through...

[The Boss]

4 minutes ago, dak4n6 said:

Sorry, didn't even make it 1/2 way through...

Well congratulations. I got to give you credit for that. I know it is difficult for many to read past 140 characters now-a-days. When I grew up, when electricity was discovered, we were frequently required to read 500 page books (double sided single spaced type) in 1 to 2 days for school. That was in grade school. I'll spare you with the details what we were required to read in graduate school. It might hurt your head. Better stop now...I'm exceeding 140 chars again.

Cheers,

The Boss

[SavvySwede]

37 minutes ago, The Boss said:

Well congratulations. I got to give you credit for that. I know it is difficult for many to read past 140 characters now-a-days. When I grew up, when electricity was discovered, we were frequently required to read 500 page books (double sided single spaced type) in 1 to 2 days for school. That was in grade school. I'll spare you with the details what we were required to read in graduate school. It might hurt your head. Better stop now...I'm exceeding 140 chars again.

Cheers,

The Boss

Those were likely well written books. You seem to want to ramble about the same points over and over again as if repeating them might make them more true. But all of your points are preceded by phrases such as "in my experience" or "I believe" (i.e anecdotes and opinions). So naturally you're going to look like the fool when you don't consider the opinions of others who have posted in this thread, many of which have worked at golf courses.

[The Boss]

38 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

Those were likely well written books. You seem to want to ramble about the same points over and over again as if repeating them might make them more true. But all of your points are preceded by phrases such as "in my experience" or "I believe" (i.e anecdotes and opinions). So naturally you're going to look like the fool when you don't consider the opinions of others who have posted in this thread, many of which have worked at golf courses.

Getting stuck on a golf course for more than 5 hours on many occasionsdue to course policies is a statement of fact. I do not know how more clearly this can be stated. It is notan opinion. I am simply addressing the OP's request for ideas that could possibly improve pace of play issues at his/her golf course. I offered him/her suggestions as requested and clearly stated why believe these suggestions would help. Experiences do count for something you would think. At least I put my suggestions out there for public scrutiny. I did not see you take the time to address the OP.  Pace of play is a serious issue at golf courses nationwide. Get off your high horse friend. This is more than my personal opinion. It is a statement of fact and has been stated in numerous golf media sources. I can provide reference if needed.

Edited February 1, 2016 by The Boss

[tristanhilton85]

1 hour ago, The Boss said:

Big C,

. Well most golf courses recommend somewhere around a 4 and 1/2 hours pace or there-abouts. I think we can agree on that desired outcome statement. Well I question whether this is just lip service or is what is truly what management of the golf course desire. i am very sincere about this. I approach this topic from the perspective of a golf consumer and not from the perspective of a golf course owner or mangager or Head Pro. When I amd my buddies go out for a casual round of golf at a public or semi-private or daily fee course my friends and I are looking very selfessly in that we wand/expect a pleasant golfing experience. What I expect from the glf course is to provide me with the opportunity to finish a round of golf in a reasonable amout of time. Now I have lower standards then my friends but I will tolerate a 5 hour round of golf.       Now during prime time periods of gold like any weekend during the spring for instance, a golf course "should" monitor pace of play as most of the better courses are filled to the gills with golfers. My experience playing golf here up and down the East Coast for many years has shown me that for the better part of the last 20 years "most" golf course are not policing the pace of play on their course. Is is a rare experience that I see marshalls and other course personnel to the extent they were available say in the 80's and early 90's. Now it may be different where you are but this is my perception whenever I play at a public golf course. I talking golf in Florida, North and South Carolina, Virginia, Maryland, Massachusetts, Rhode Island. Whenever a 18 hole golf course is playing at capacity I am of the firmest belief, based on thousand plus rounds of life-time experience that sending golfers out all day long at prime time in less then 10 minute spacing intervals will not allow one to complete a round a golf in under 5 hours unless on-the-course pace of play is strictly enforced by the course marshall. As I stated, my experiences are that golf courses in general are not enforcing pace of play on courses with any level of enforcement. Enforcement has been declining and one can talk about this topic at length also for the reasons why this is but that is a discussion for another day. Now if what I am claming is true, which I sincerely do believe, then the only way a golf course can regulate pace of play is to better control the numbers of golfers it sends out to the course. The course also controls its course policy to regulate walking the course and it also can regulate whether 2-somes are paired up or not with other golfers due especially during periods of heavy use. These are the primary tools a golf course has to regulate pace of play at aheir golf course. Keep in mind, a flow of golfers through the golf course can only move as fast as the slowest golfer on the golf course whenever the golf course is filled. So that means even if I play every hole in say less than 10 minues, then a golfer that is 9 holes in front of me that is playing at a pace 20 minutes a hole will slow every golfer that is behind him/her down to a 20 minute pace. I have been paired with some golfers who actually believe that since they pay the golf course their daily fee that they are entitled to take a much tme as they wish to enjoy their round of golf (which I strongly disagree).. Anyway, I am digressing. To get on point again, unless the golf course has realistic enforcement in whatever manner they chose, then a less than 10 minute staging interval does not work if the golf course is truly sincere about golfers finishing their rounds in typically 4 and 1/2 hours. This is unrealistic for a golf course to believe it is and I, as a golfing consumer, am dissatisfied if a golf course does not enforce in some manner through their policies what it establishes for its operation which will insure I finish my round of golf in 5 hours or less.  I expect nothing less from the golf course and I place 100% of the blame squarely on the golf course if golfers are finishing their rounds of golf in 5 and 1/2 hours or more. Now I know that anybody on this forum who works for or owns a golf course will take the side "We need to get as many golfers on our course playing our course as possible...so what if the golfers get upset". Well, from a consumer standpoint I reject this arguement. I will take my business elsewhere and I have done so from time to time. Anyway, I ranted far to long in this post. I strongly believe in everything I have stated or claimed and I am convinced I am correct in my beliefs.

The Boss

TL;DR

[SavvySwede]

14 minutes ago, The Boss said:

Getting stuck on a golf course for more than 5 hours on many occasionsdue to course policies is a statement of fact. I do not know how more clearly this can be stated. It is notan opinion. I am simply addressing the OP's request for ideas that could possibly improve pace of play issues at his/her golf course. I offered him/her suggestions as requested and clearly stated why believe these suggestions would help. Experiences do count for something you would think. At least I put my suggestions out there for public scrutiny. I did not see you take the time to address the OP.  Pace of play is a serious issue at golf courses nationwide. Get off your high horse friend. This is more than my personal opinion. It is a statement of fact and has been stated in numerous golf media sources. I can provide reference if needed.

This sure doesn't read like a fact.

1 hour ago, The Boss said:

Now if what I am claming is true, which I sincerely do believe, then the only way a golf course can regulate pace of play is to better control the numbers of golfers it sends out to the course.

You say the "only way" to regulate pace is to control the number of golfers. A golf course can also regulate pace of play by better educating players about techniques that will make it easy to play quickly without feeling rushed. Some courses in other countries require new golfers to pass a test before they can make tee times.

[The Boss]

9 minutes ago, SavvySwede said:

This sure doesn't read like a fact.

You say the "only way" to regulate pace is to control the number of golfers. A golf course can also regulate pace of play by better educating players about techniques that will make it easy to play quickly without feeling rushed. Some courses in other countries require new golfers to pass a test before they can make tee times.

I am at-loss regarding your first comment. Not sure what you are trying to say tnere.

Regarding your last thought...yes. I  am aware there are more stringent requirements to play golf in places like Germany and in Scotland. Probably other place also. Not sure if this would go over well here in the states. Not sure if American golfers would accept this imposition. But your comment about education  is a very good point. Not too many places teach the newer/younger golfer about course etiquette so I stand corrected. We can add this good suggestion to the list.

[Lihu]

8 hours ago, The Boss said:

I am at-loss regarding your first comment. Not sure what you are trying to say tnere.

Regarding your last thought...yes. I  am aware there are more stringent requirements to play golf in places like Germany and in Scotland. Probably other place also. Not sure if this would go over well here in the states. Not sure if American golfers would accept this imposition. But your comment about education  is a very good point. Not too many places teach the newer/younger golfer about course etiquette so I stand corrected. We can add this good suggestion to the list.

Almost all instructors are not educated very well in teaching "playing fast while feeling unrushed". It's definitely a missing skill that seems to take years to nurture along with all the other skills needed to play. That is, if a golfer even is aware that he should even learn it.

Not sure how this concept can be made more widely understood? Most people think they understand playing this way, but then end up doing things that are inefficient.

[Bill926]

why cant the guy/girl checking you in at the pro shop and/or the starter make you aware of a pace of play policy and certain rules they have so its the first thing you hear before going out?  I cant remember ever hearing that mentioned.  One their rules could be you have to pick up after 7.  Or coming up with some kind of system for assigning tee boxes at the beginning of the round based on handicap or driver distance.  Just about all foursomes play from the same tees and a lot of times they are all different skill levels.  I think most people know about these things, nut they're not enforced as actual rules of the course.

[Fourputt]

19 hours ago, Fourputt said:

 

The course needs to have a workable policy, they need to enforce the policy, and every player needs to be informed of both the policy and consequences before he tees up his first ball.  After that there are no excuses.  You keep up with the pace or you accept the consequences.  That's it, period.

I realize that it was difficult to read the last couple of pages with the 5000 word paragraphs that "The Boss" was writing, but I posted the above comment one page earlier, buried in among his ramblings.  Didn't want you to think you were alone in the wilderness. 

5 minutes ago, Bill926 said:

why cant the guy/girl checking you in at the pro shop and/or the starter make you aware of a pace of play policy and certain rules they have so its the first thing you hear before going out?  I cant remember ever hearing that mentioned.  One their rules could be you have to pick up after 7.  Or coming up with some kind of system for assigning tee boxes at the beginning of the round based on handicap or driver distance.  Just about all foursomes play from the same tees and a lot of times they are all different skill levels.  I think most people know about these things, nut they're not enforced as actual rules of the course.

 

[boogielicious]

1 hour ago, Fourputt said:

I realize that it was difficult to read the last couple of pages with the 5000 word paragraphs that "The Boss" was writing, but I posted the above comment one page earlier, buried in among his ramblings.  Didn't want you to think you were alone in the wilderness. 

 

Rick,

Please don't continue to provoke. Make your point and move on. 

[dak4n6]

21 hours ago, The Boss said:

Well congratulations. I got to give you credit for that. I know it is difficult for many to read past 140 characters now-a-days. When I grew up, when electricity was discovered, we were frequently required to read 500 page books (double sided single spaced type) in 1 to 2 days for school. That was in grade school. I'll spare you with the details what we were required to read in graduate school. It might hurt your head. Better stop now...I'm exceeding 140 chars again.

Cheers,

The Boss

Thanks for coming down to my level. I'm 56, and have an MS in Chemistry. Have you taken PChem, Thermodynamics, and DiffEqs?

When I was young I read Faulkner, Mitchner, Kant, Dostoyevsky, Sartre, Kafka, Sir Walter Scott, Crichton, and of course Tolkien, and many others, all outside of school.

Once again thanks for being condescending. You're off to a great start here at TST.

[Lihu]

49 minutes ago, dak4n6 said:

Thanks for coming down to my level. I'm 56, and have an MS in Chemistry. Have you taken PChem, Thermodynamics, and DiffEqs?

I took these courses in school***, and still can't read nearly as well as my two children even when they were 8.

***Took Quantum Mechanics and Physical Chemistry to get out of taking a couple writing classes.

[dak4n6]

2 minutes ago, Lihu said:

I took these courses in school***, and still can't read nearly as well as my two children even when they were 8.

***Took Quantum Mechanics and Physical Chemistry to get out of taking a couple writing classes.

You got some good kids. Out of my wife's 3 kids, only one loves to read, and he is voracious. He devours everything I recommend to him.

When I was in college, I actually preferred courses wherein phenomena are described mathematically. It removes ambiguity.

[iacas]

 

[dak4n6]

Gottcha. Damn Erik, you're everywhere...