Baggers getting the boot!

[bplewis24]

The handicap committee should assign a "special handicap" to these two individual in any future competition.  I have seen this done at my club and in a men's club I belong to.  If the handicap committee doesn't react to these situations they will soon find no one willing to compete in any handicapped tournaments.

That's exactly how the NCGA (and probably all USGA affiliates?) handles it.  They have all of your revision scores listed, and then below that they have your two lowest tournament scores.  My understanding is that if you show any pattern of posting scores for non-tournament rounds that are significantly higher than your posted tournament scores, the NCGA will assign you a special tournament handicap that you must use for official competitions.

[rkim291968]

Do players generally score worse (than their handicap) in official tournaments?

[Motley01]

Do players generally score worse (than their handicap) in official tournaments?

Yes sir indeed. Because tournaments have more pressure than your average round of golf. Every putt must hit the bottom of the cup. The course is usually setup harder, pin placements, green speed, etc.

When I play in handicapped tournaments, I average 4-5 strokes higher than my handicap.

So someone that can shoot 10 strokes lower than there handicap, in a tournament situation, is like the odd of winning the lottery of something.

[Big C]

Do players generally score worse (than their handicap) in official tournaments?

. 75% of a player's scores are going to be worse than their index, just because of the way the calculation works. Take the pressure that comes along with a tournament and I would suspect that number could be as high as 80-90% for a large portion of players in tournament conditions. Now with that said, there are always going to be a handful of guys who play better under pressure. They might approach 50% success at shooting or beating their index. But to answer your question, yes, golfers usually score worse than their handicap in tournaments.

[Big C]

To give one example, my men's club hosted a Christmas tournament in December. Over 150 members participated. Only one guy shot a score in the net 60's that day.

[midnightbui]

Tournament handicap sucks.  I play at my club so much so i know all the right places to hit off the tee and on the greens.  So my tournament handicap is real low t

Yes sir indeed. Because tournaments have more pressure than your average round of golf. Every putt must hit the bottom of the cup. The course is usually setup harder, pin placements, green speed, etc.

When I play in handicapped tournaments, I average 4-5 strokes higher than my handicap.

So someone that can shoot 10 strokes lower than there handicap, in a tournament situation, is like the odd of winning the lottery of something.

Well not in my case.  I play better at my course tournaments than other regular rounds. To me, i know where to hit or miss, where the breaks are on the greens etc.  I generally play better because i know the course.

[midnightbui]

Tournament handicap sucks.  I play at my club so much so i know all the right places to hit off the tee and on the greens.  So my tournament handicap is real low t

Well not in my case.  I play better at my course tournaments than other regular rounds. To me, i know where to hit or miss, where the breaks are on the greens etc.  I generally play better because i know the course.

my apologies to the first part of my post.  I was beginning to comment on someones post but forgot to finish nor delete it before writing the second one.

[rkim291968]

To give one example, my men's club hosted a Christmas tournament in December. Over 150 members participated. Only one guy shot a score in the net 60's that day.

Ok, that explains how I ended up finishing 2nd in the only tournament (2 day, 90% handicap) I entered.  I played 6 strokes worse than my handicap for two day total and thought I had no chance.   When checking the final scores, I found that most players did a lot worse than their handicap (average of 12+ strokes worse for two day total).

[bplewis24]

To give one example, my men's club hosted a Christmas tournament in December. Over 150 members participated. Only one guy shot a score in the net 60's that day.

In the club I left, we would generally have 30-50 people participating, and 2-5 people in each flight would be in the net 60s every tournament.

Tournament handicap sucks.  I play at my club so much so i know all the right places to hit off the tee and on the greens.  So my tournament handicap is real low t

Well not in my case.  I play better at my course tournaments than other regular rounds. To me, i know where to hit or miss, where the breaks are on the greens etc.  I generally play better because i know the course.

I don't doubt that you score better in tournaments (I am sometimes like that...I tend to focus better and slow down a bit when I get in "tournament mode").  However, I don't get why knowing the course would only benefit you in tournaments.  Don't you know the course every round?  Or are you saying a substantial portion of your index is based on "away" courses?

[MS256]

In the club I left, we would generally have 30-50 people participating, and 2-5 people in each flight would be in the net 60s every tournament.

I don't doubt that you score better in tournaments (I am sometimes like that...I tend to focus better and slow down a bit when I get in "tournament mode").  However, I don't get why knowing the course would only benefit you in tournaments.  Don't you know the course every round?  Or are you saying a substantial portion of your index is based on "away" courses?

I occasionally play in flighted tournaments where the flight is determined by the first day's score.

My problem is almost always that I shoot lights out the first day, get in the Championship flight (where I don't belong), and then fall on my face the next day.

I never mastered the art of playing badly the first day and good the second day like a lot of guys seem to do.

[Big C]

In the club I left, we would generally have 30-50 people participating, and 2-5 people in each flight would be in the net 60s every tournament. I don't doubt that you score better in tournaments (I am sometimes like that...I tend to focus better and slow down a bit when I get in "tournament mode").  However, I don't get why knowing the course would only benefit you in tournaments.  Don't you know the course every round?  Or are you saying a substantial portion of your index is based on "away" courses?

In a normal tournament with no sandbagging, I would suggest that a reasonable outcome would lie somewhere in the middle. According the USGA probability charts, the odds of a mid-handicapper shooting 3 strokes better than his index in a tournament are between 1 in 40 to 1 in 50. 2-5 people in each flight sounds like way too much and would be cause for concern for me as well. In my case, the tournament was played to everyone's LI, with extremely tough pin placements. So the scores were higher than average.

[bplewis24]

In a normal tournament with no sandbagging, I would suggest that a reasonable outcome would lie somewhere in the middle. According the USGA probability charts, the odds of a mid-handicapper shooting 3 strokes better than his index in a tournament are between 1 in 40 to 1 in 50. 2-5 people in each flight sounds like way too much and would be cause for concern for me as well.

In my case, the tournament was played to everyone's LI, with extremely tough pin placements. So the scores were higher than average.

Some of our tournaments were on courses that are likely easier than yours.  Of course, that is factored into the course handicap, but it bears noting.

One of the issues is that I know first-hand that one of the guys is a sandbagger, and he is constantly in the money.  The first year I played with him I suspected it, even though I didn't know there was a term (sandbagger) for it then (four years ago?).  Two years ago I won my flight and qualified for an NCGA qualifier.  I beat him out by a stroke, and his son was right behind me.  I played with his son in the qualifying tournament, and I believe he is mentally handicapped on some slight level.  He rambles on and on, non-stop, and often talks about things he shouldn't.  Anyway, he wouldn't stop telling me about his father instructing him not to post any good scores in between our initial tournament and the NCGA-sanctioned qualifier.  That didn't surprise me, but it's all I needed to know.

[midnightbui]

In the club I left, we would generally have 30-50 people participating, and 2-5 people in each flight would be in the net 60s every tournament.

I don't doubt that you score better in tournaments (I am sometimes like that...I tend to focus better and slow down a bit when I get in "tournament mode").  However, I don't get why knowing the course would only benefit you in tournaments.  Don't you know the course every round?  Or are you saying a substantial portion of your index is based on "away" courses?

Correct, majotiry of my index comes from away courses.  Knowing the greens, knowing what to hit off the tee like a 3w as opposed to a driver etc.  If i were at other courses i would mostly let it fly and deal with the consequences later.  Playing my home course during tournaments i would play "safe".  I know i should be doing that all the time but i just dont.

[Lihu]

If the guys get booted, and learned their lesson. Would they be able to get their reputations back once they play tournaments meant for their level?

Or does that stigma stick with them the rest of their lives?

[rkim291968]

If the guys get booted, and learned their lesson. Would they be able to get their reputations back once they play tournaments meant for their level? Or does that stigma stick with them the rest of their lives?

Is this a trick question? :-D I think such person won't likely to change. Otherwise, he wouldn't have done that in the first place. He will likely repeat his behavior in another setting. There should be a tournament for sandbaggers only. ;-)

[Lihu]

Is this a trick question? I think such person won't likely to change. Otherwise, he wouldn't have done that in the first place. He will likely repeat his behavior in another setting. There should be a tournament for sandbaggers only.

Funny concept.

[ghalfaire]

Do players generally score worse (than their handicap) in official tournaments?

I believe most golfers play consistent with their handicap in tournaments.  But there are some that typically play worse than their handicap because of the pressure and others, that are not sand baggers, but consistently play better than their handicap because of the pressure.  The very few sand baggers I have known were clever enough to not win tournaments by any significant number of stokes just as pool sharks don't run the table at the local pool hall.  I believe that most who consistently win tournaments are golfers that have learned to deal with the on course pressure and still play to their handicap.  But in any case the USGA has rules for golfers who consistently play better than their handicap in tournaments, regardless of the reason for the better play.  In the case the OP presented, these rules should be applied to these two golfers in any future tournaments and if there is evidence of cheating these golfer should be prohibited from participating in any handicap event.